Viscount Astor: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. Does he agree that since London is a capital city, the Government should look at the effects of the congestion charge, particularly on businesses in the city, both inside and outside the charging area, particularly as the Mayor's consultation has not really included businesses, which are, after all, the most badly affected.

Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the John Lewis Partnership has conducted a vigorous campaign against the congestion charge, both in London and Edinburgh, through the medium of the local press? If the Government's congestion charging policy is to have any chance of success, it is essential that people really understand the impact on business. Is the Minister aware that at the same time as the John Lewis Partnership was complaining the Underground was in turmoil, Americans were staying away from London, and the terrorist threat was very high? Will he make sure that some independent assessment is made of these facts, so that rumours are not the basis on which people make decisions?

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. His comments reinforce what we on these Benches have been thinking. In 2003, 71 per cent of appeals led to reinstatement in those schools. Given that we have just spent days discussing an education Bill that is trying to raise standards in schools, does he not think that reinstatement of those pupils who were excluded for violence does nothing to increase standards in our education system? It only decreases the morale and so on of everyone in the school.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, is in danger of conflating various statistics and making two plus two equal five. In 2002–03, which is the last year for statistics, there were 9,290 permanent exclusions. Of those, about 10 per cent appealed and only 149 were reinstated. Those 149 do not, of course, equate to cases of serious violence, because those would be only a small proportion of all the cases that were excluded. Only 21 per cent of appeals were found in favour of parents, which does not indicate that the system is collapsing, nor is it right that parents are deprived of their right, if their child is excluded, at least to have the case put as to why they think that their child should not be excluded.
	Having said that, only 1.6 per cent of permanently-excluded pupils were reinstated—I repeat, 1.6 per cent—and a very small proportion of those would have been involved in violence, real or threatened.

Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, what type of training do the members of the independent appeals panels receive? What are the Government doing to look at the root causes of the type of ill-discipline that sometimes leads to those serious situations, such as family problems requiring family support services, the need for mental health services for teenagers and, in some cases, inappropriate curriculum?

Lord Filkin: My Lords, we certainly keep statistics on all the attacks on teachers that lead to disciplinary action and either temporary or permanent exclusion. I shall double-check whether, in the rare cases when serious attacks did not lead to temporary or permanent exclusions, we also have data. But I would expect so, because I agree with him; it is extremely serious when a member of teaching staff or any other member of the school workforce is attacked by a pupil.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, first, we changed the guidance to independent appeals panels so that they could find in favour of a parent—in other words, they could find that the exclusion was not justified—but at the same time decide not to reinstate the pupil into that school. One can well see that there would be circumstances when that was a healthy piece of flexibility.
	Over and above that, the panel is entitled to make a judgment, weighing up the interests of the pupil and the interests of the wider school community. That could bear directly on the issue raised by the noble Lord, because the question is not simply whether that child should be put back. There are, of course, many other routes for either temporarily or permanently excluded pupils. Clearly, those include time in pupil referral units—we have nearly doubled the number of places over recent years—and learning support units. Therefore, we do not think that there is a crude necessity simply to force pupils back into a specific school when it might not be in the interests of the wider school community, even though there might be an arguable case for doing so in relation to the pupil himself.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the basis on which the 12p in the pound calculation was made in 1994—by the previous Administration, I hasten to say—was that it would replace the loss to the Revenue of taxation on other forms of gambling or, indeed, other forms of charitable giving. I agree that that is more than 10 years ago and it is certainly true that the matter should be, and is being, kept under review. The Treasury evidence to the Commons Select Committee gives credence to that point.

The Lord Bishop of Worcester: My Lords, given the figures that the Minister gave us and given the current proposals before us in the form of the Gambling Bill, does the Minister occasionally think that there might be a risk that the Government will acquire such a vested interest in people gambling that it will make it very difficult for them to address the many social evils which follow when gambling increases to the extent that it has?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, let us be clear. Since 1997, spending on pensioners has risen by £10 billion, £7 billion of which is more than if the basic state pension had increased in line with earnings. So we are way ahead in what we have done. We have concentrated a lot on poorer pensioners. As for doing things and then claiming credit at the general election, I fully accept that I think that the winter fuel payment was a good idea and I have no doubt that we may claim some credit for that at the general election. Reducing value-added tax on fuel from 8 per cent to 5 per cent was a good idea. Free eye tests for the over-60s was a good idea and I think we might claim some credit for that at the general election. Free TV licences for the over-75s was a good idea and we may well claim credit for it at the general election.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, with the leave of the House, following the opening speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, my noble friend Lord Treisman will repeat a Statement that is being made in another place on the Commission for Africa report.
	As the House will know, the Second Reading debate has attracted 38 Back-Bench speakers. If each contribution were to last about seven minutes, the House should rise at around eleven o'clock; eight minutes and the House should rise by half-past eleven.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
	I would be the first to acknowledge that this is a wide-ranging Bill. It is concerned with a number of diverse issues, but there is a common thread running through each and every one of them; namely, to make our communities safer. The Bill will strengthen our ability to tackle criminality at all levels, from the international drug barons and people traffickers to low-level crime and anti-social behaviour.
	I am gratified by the wide measure of cross-party support for the large majority of the provisions in the Bill. I am sure that that support will be echoed during our proceedings and that the constructive dialogue that started in the other place will be completed in your Lordships' House during the debates that we are no doubt to enjoy.
	That is not to say that there are not differences of opinion on some of the key issues, nor that we should not properly discharge our responsibility to scrutinise carefully the legislation that comes before this House. As its Short Title suggests, at its core the Bill is about tackling serious organised crime. There is nothing glamorous about organised crime, as some film-makers would have us believe. Its devastating effects can be seen across the length and breadth of the country. Organised criminal gangs supply the drugs that feed much of the crime at local level and ruin individual lives ravaged by addiction. They supply the illegal migrants who are exploited as modern-day slave labour or as sex workers. And they supply the guns that can cut down innocent victims caught in the cross fire between rival street gangs.
	Organised crime costs this country a minimum of £20 billion a year. That is by any reckoning a significant sum. The challenge that we have set ourselves is to make the United Kingdom the most hostile climate for organised criminals to operate in. The White Paper, One Step Ahead, published this time last year, set out our strategy for meeting that challenge and defeating organised crime. We have already achieved significant successes. I pay tribute to the National Crime Squad, the National Criminal Intelligence Service, Customs and Excise and the Immigration Service for their considerable achievements in helping to put organised criminal gangs out of business.
	In the 18 months to the end of 2003, we have disrupted or confiscated 11 tonnes of heroin and 26 tonnes of cocaine. Last year, 2003–04, the joint National Crime Squad and Immigration Service Immigration Crime Team disrupted or dismantled 46 organised immigration crime enterprises and made 115 arrests. In the same year the police, Customs and other agencies recovered £54.5 million in criminal assets.
	We must not, however, under-estimate the challenges ahead. To stay one step ahead of organised crime we need to ensure that we have the right structures in place and the necessary, but proportionate, powers at the disposal of law enforcement agencies. There is wide acceptance that, if we are to make the necessary step change in the quality of our effort against organised crime, we need to remove existing organisational barriers which are an impediment to success.
	It makes no sense for there to be an organisational divide between the gathering and dissemination of intelligence and the operational uses to which such intelligence is put. Nor does it make sense for much of the national effort against serious drug trafficking to be split between Customs and the National Crime Squad.
	The establishment of the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) will lead to a sea change in our response to organised crime. I should emphasise that in setting up SOCA we are not simply bolting together the whole or part of four existing organisations and putting a new name-plate on the door. If that was the result of Part 1 of the Bill it would be to miss an opportunity.
	SOCA will be more than the sum of its parts. It will need to be if it is successfully to bring together some 1,200 Customs officers, 1,000 police officers, 70 immigration officers and 2,300 other staff from existing agencies. The status of those staff has been one of the running issues of contention in relation to Part 1. Clearly, if we were creating a new national police force it would be appropriate to staff it with police officers. But that is emphatically not what we seek to create. Indeed, we have always shied away from creating a national police force in this country, but that—perhaps I may respectfully say—is the natural consequence of the approach of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. I can anticipate that that may not be the intention, but it is what we say would be the effect.
	In reducing the harm caused by serious organised crime, SOCA will not restrict itself to the traditional investigation and prosecution methods of the police service. Of course, such methods will have a legitimate place in SOCA's armoury, but the agency will want to use all the methods at its disposal to disrupt and defeat organised criminal networks. Such methods will include international action to disrupt the supply of drugs, the confiscation of criminal assets, regulatory action against accountants and others who support criminal enterprises, and preventive action to strengthen the defences of, for example, the financial services industry, against serious fraud. These are not activities which inherently must be undertaken by police officers.
	What is important is that SOCA staff have the necessary skills and training to undertake their duties in accordance with the high professional standards set by the agency. It is for this reason that we have now included in the Bill a requirement on the director general to satisfy himself that a member of staff has the necessary training before any police, Customs or immigration powers are conferred on that individual. We should value the professionalism and dedication of all the staff who are to join SOCA, whatever their background, not just the status of a minority of staff who currently hold the office of constable.
	Some concerns have also been expressed about the powers of the Home Secretary in relation to SOCA. We firmly believe that such concerns are misplaced. Part 1 confers on the Home Secretary no greater powers than those currently vested in him in relation to the National Crime Squad and the National Criminal Intelligence Service. Indeed, the reverse is the case as we are forgoing existing powers to make regulations governing, for example, the terms and conditions of staff.
	The Bill provides for the Home Secretary to appoint the majority of members of the SOCA board. However, four out of 11 will be ex officio members, appointed by the director general without reference to Ministers. Typically, for other non-departmental public bodies all board appointments are made by Ministers.
	The Bill also provides for the Home Secretary to set the strategic priorities of the agency. As Sir Stephen Lander, the chairman designate of SOCA, has made clear, determining the overarching priorities for a law enforcement agency, such as SOCA, is essentially a political judgment which properly falls to Ministers to make. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary sets the national policing priorities and the objectives for NCS and NCIS. So, again, we are not breaking any new ground.
	As I have made clear, the changes provided for in Part 1 are only one aspect of our wider strategy to defeat organised crime. We need also to equip SOCA and other law enforcement agencies with new, appropriate powers so that they can more effectively target organised criminal enterprises and those that help to sustain them.
	The provisions in Part 2 are directed to that end. We have provided for the extended use of the existing powers available to the Serious Fraud Office and others to compel people to co-operate with investigations by producing documents or answering questions. We suggest to the House that if such powers are available in complex fraud cases or for the investigation of offences under the Companies Act, there can be no objection, in principle, to making such powers available to SOCA and to the police for use in the investigation of other serious and organised crimes.
	The Government fully accept that any extension of such powers must be subject to the appropriate safeguards. Accordingly, we have provided that the powers will be exercisable only by prosecutors and may be used only in the investigation of a limited number of serious offences that are listed in the Bill. We have also incorporated appropriate safeguards against self-incrimination and to protect privileged information.
	Elsewhere in Part 2, we seek to place Queen's evidence on a statutory footing. It is already well established in case law that offenders who plead guilty and co-operate with the prosecution should be eligible to receive some reduction in their sentence. But we want to encourage greater use of Queen's evidence. We believe that by providing for a system of binding agreements between defendants and prosecutors, all those involved will have greater confidence in the process. That will not only help persuade more members of organised criminal gangs to co-operate, but will also strengthen the credibility of the testimony that they provide.
	We recognise that informants will want to be satisfied as to their own safety before turning Queen's evidence. Accordingly, we have also provided in Part 2 for the existing arrangements for witness protection to be placed on a statutory footing. Chapter 3 of Part 2 provides for the imposition of financial reporting orders as one part of a sentence. Such orders will act as a deterrent to reoffending, but could also provide a valuable source of intelligence where an offender returns to crime.
	Finally, this part of the Bill also makes a number of timely amendments to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. The amendments have two purposes. First, they would enable the faster and more efficient execution of the Assets Recovery Agency's business, particularly in civil recovery cases. Secondly, the changes to the 2002 Act will reduce the regulatory burden on financial and other institutions in making suspicious activity reports to NCIS, and in future to SOCA, where these are of limited intelligence value.
	Part 3 of the Bill concerns the powers of police officers set out in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and of designated staff set out in the Police Reform Act 2002. I want to focus on three elements of that part of the Bill.
	The new framework of arrest powers provided for in Clause 106 has attracted considerable comment. I must say that much of that has been based on what we believe to be a misunderstanding of the current law. It is often not appreciated that under the existing provisions in Section 25 of PACE, a police constable may already make an arrest for any offence where one of the general arrest conditions is satisfied. In providing for any offence to be arrestable, subject to a necessity test, we are not therefore breaking wholly new ground. That there is confusion is perhaps not surprising given the complexity of the current law on arrest powers. This reinforces the case for a reform which brings greater clarity and transparency to the law both from the perspective of the police officer and of the citizen.
	Clauses 116 and 117 provide for the appointment of staff custody officers as an alternative to custody sergeants. I should emphasise that there is nothing in these clauses that would require forces to appoint staff custody officers. The decision will be entirely in the hands of the individual chief officers. That said, a number of forces are keen to go down this path, not least because chief officers have found it difficult to find police sergeants willing to take on this role.
	It has been suggested that the position of custody officer is such that only an experienced police sergeant can fulfil the role. I make plain that we do not accept that argument. The arguments tend to have a familiar ring to them. We have heard them on a number of occasions when a whole host of other specialist functions, previously undertaken by police officers, were passed over to civilians. In those other cases it has been clear that civilians have been able to discharge their duty with propriety and care in a sound way.
	 I acknowledge the concerns that have been expressed, particularly about the ability of police staff to be in a position to make effective decisions about a person's detention. That is why we are prepared to pilot these provisions. We will discuss the format of the pilots with stakeholders and place particular focus on the practical application at the police station and the decision-making process.
	Furthermore, we will ensure that the pilots are independently evaluated and consult on the results of that evaluation before any decision is taken to roll these provisions out across the country as a whole.
	Finally, Schedules 8 and 9 extend the powers of community support officers and other designated and accredited staff. The new powers of CSOs include those to search persons for alcohol and tobacco; powers to deal with the night-time economy and alcohol-related anti-social behaviour, and powers to deter begging and to enforce by-laws. These new powers are entirely in keeping with the existing role of the CSOs in tackling anti-social behaviour and a range of other low-level problems which can impact adversely on the quality of life in our communities.
	Evidence from local forces shows that CSOs are already making a real difference to public confidence and police effectiveness. For example, the interim report of the national evaluation of CSOs, published in December 2004, showed that in Northumbria public satisfaction with the police has risen by 32 per cent in areas where CSOs patrol. We want further to increase their effectiveness.
	Nothing can be more frustrating for community support officers than to be faced with a problem which they know is within their capabilities to address, but which they are powerless to do anything about. This is not about mission creep, but giving CSOs the practical powers they need to deal with low-level anti-social behaviour. CSOs are an additional, complementary resource; they are not a substitute for fully trained police officers. The record number of police officers—up by 13,000 since 1997—is a testament to that.
	Part 4 of the Bill and Clauses 142 to 146 in Part 5 raise important issues around the balance between the rights of society as a whole and individual liberties. In a democratic society, everyone has the right to protest and to voice their opinions. But such rights are not absolute, particularly where they infringe the rights of others.
	I would like first to accept that there will be those who are passionate in their opposition to any form of animal experimentation. They should be able to campaign vigorously on this issue and seek to persuade others of their point of view. But what they are emphatically not entitled to do is to use campaigns of harassment, intimidation and violence to prevent others going about their lawful business.
	Such illegal behaviour cannot be tolerated and we are determined to do all we can to protect the bioscience industry and its suppliers from the vicious campaigns by animal rights extremists. The work of this industry is critical to improving the health of the nation. If we are to make further advances in medical science—for example, a cure for Alzheimer's—it will continue to be necessary for the foreseeable future to use animals in research. We will not permit the extremist element to deflect the Government from their proper and vital work in this area.
	The Bill strengthens the protection afforded to the bioscience industry, and those who work in it, in a number of respects. Clauses 121 to 123 tighten the law on harassment including by making it an offence to protest outside a person's home in a way that causes harassment, alarm or distress to the residents of that home.
	Clauses 142 to 146 seek to extend greater protection to animal research organisations, including breeding establishments supplying animals for use in animal research. In particular, these clauses will make it an offence to interfere with contractual relationships with the intention of harming an animal research organisation or to intimidate persons connected with such an organisation. These offences will attract a sentence of up to five years' imprisonment.
	We have seen that animal rights extremists now commonly target the immediate suppliers of animal research organisations or even the suppliers of those suppliers. These new offences will send a clear message to the extremists that their tactics will not be allowed to succeed.
	I come now to what is undoubtedly the most hotly debated of the provisions in the Bill; namely, the offence of inciting hatred against persons on religious grounds. Let me begin by acknowledging the common ground between the parties. All sides of this House will share the Government's abhorrence of those who seek to whip up community tensions by inciting hatred against those who hold a particular religious faith. Today, Muslims are often the target. In the past it has been Jews, but tomorrow it could be Christians, Hindus or indeed those of no faith.
	In utterly rejecting the language and activities of far right groups and extremists from within faith communities, there is a broad acceptance of the need for some greater protection for faith groups. The argument is no longer about whether a strengthening of the law is needed, but rather about the form it should take. It is a question with which this House has grappled for some time. It is certainly one that the members of the Select Committee on Religious Offences, chaired by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, considered at length, but on which they could not reach a consensus on the way forward.
	For our part, we have looked at a number of options, including those put forward by the parties opposite. We have concluded that the most effective means of affording greater protection to faith groups is by extending the existing offences of incitement of hatred against persons on racial grounds so that they also capture incitement of hatred on religious grounds.
	As this Bill has progressed it has been interesting to see how the arguments against this provision have shifted. At first, the debate was about whether the offence would have the effect of gagging comedians. As we have explained the nature of the offence, that argument has subsided.
	I acknowledge that there are still concerns about the impact of the offence on freedom of speech. There is no denying that there will be some impact: after all, we are seeking to curb the use of vitriolic language designed to incite hatred. But this provision of the Bill will categorically not restrict the ability of any person to proselytise their religious faith or to comment on or criticise the teaching of any faith or the religious practices of any faith group.
	There are no fewer than six safeguards to protect religious discussion and debate before a case even reaches court. First, for an offence to be committed a person must use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour. Secondly, there must either be an intention to stir up religious hatred or a likelihood that the words or conduct will do so. Thirdly, the offence is directed at the incitement of hatred; this is a strong emotion which goes beyond contempt or ridicule. Fourthly, the offence is not concerned with hatred of religion, but with hatred of a group of persons defined by their faith or lack of it. Fifthly, the offence does not bite in relation to words uttered by a person in his own home. Sixthly, any prosecution must be sanctioned by the Attorney-General. Taken together, these tests set a high threshold against inappropriate or unwarranted prosecutions and in so doing ensure that freedom of expression is properly protected.
	The argument that has now come to the fore is that the new offence would raise expectations among faith groups that cannot and will not be realised. We find this a difficult argument. There must be many instances where this House has passed legislation in the knowledge that at least some of the proponents of the legislation have ill-founded expectations about what it will achieve or is designed to achieve. That should never be an argument against passing new laws, if those new laws are merited. But it is an argument in favour of properly explaining the purpose and effect of any new laws.
	Perhaps I may contribute to that process by dispelling the myth that the Muslim Council of Britain believes that the new offence would put a stop to people being rude or insulting about Islam. Iqbal Sacranie has made it perfectly clear that the new law offers no protection for the Muslim faith, but does seek to protect persons who hold that faith.
	We suggest that the time for this new offence has come. We have already discussed it at great length in the context of the Government's Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and again in 2002 in the context of the Religious Offences Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. We also note that in 2001 there was strong support from a number of noble Lords on the Benches opposite, notably from the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, who said:
	"The Minister would have our full support if legislation that was separate from the anti-terrorism Bill was involved".—[Official Report, 27/11/01; col. 211.]
	As recently as last November, during the debate on the Queen's Speech, the noble Lord said:
	"Legislation to outlaw incitement to religious hatred is welcome".—[Official Report, 29/11/04; col. 279.]
	In the light of that endorsement, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to support the legislation. We understand how difficult this issue is, but we believe that the time has come.
	I want to touch briefly on the other provisions in the Bill; namely, the clauses dealing with demonstrations in the vicinity of Parliament Square. This is an issue on which all Members of the House will have a view, although I am conscious that the noble Viscount, Lord Tenby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Knight of Collingtree, have taken a particular interest in the matter.
	Let me make it clear that Clauses 129 to 135 are not about denying the right of protest. These clauses would require protesters to give prior notice of their protest to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, but he is then obliged—I emphasise the word "obliged"—to authorise the demonstration. It will, however, be open to the commissioner to attach conditions to the authorisation where it is necessary, for example, to safeguard the operation of Parliament or to prevent a security risk in the area.
	I am conscious that concerns have been expressed about the requirement to give at least six days' notice of any demonstration. The Government are sympathetic to the view that there should be provision for a shorter notice period in exceptional circumstances and I intend to bring forward appropriate amendments in Committee to provide for this.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I warmly congratulate the Minister on the report and thank the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister for the leadership that he has given in shining a sharp light on Africa's problems. Would he not agree that the commission report has very little in it for one group of countries that is all too large in Africa—that is to say, states that have already failed or are failing, for which no amount of aid, investment or trade is going to be any good until the questions of peace and security are properly addressed? Would he agree that it is important to find responses to that, too? There is not an awful lot in the commission report on that subject, which involves some 15 African countries.
	Secondly, does he agree that, while it is admirable and excellent that the African Union and its sub-regional organisations are now beginning to address problems of peace and security and governance, the problem is not so much that Africans stood back while others dealt with the problems of the continent, but that non-Africans are now starting to stand back and encourage the Africans to do the lot when they cannot? The Africans have no heavy lift to get troops in position and they have no money to support troops in peacekeeping operations. They need a great deal of help.
	Does the Minister agree that, in order to get a comprehensive set of prescriptions for Africa, it will be necessary to fit together the prescriptions of this commission and those of the high-level panel that reported to the Secretary-General? That dealt fully with a 10-year capacity building system for African peacekeeping, the need for the international community to provide financial support for African peacekeeping and other matters that are not dealt with in great detail in this report.

Lord Triesman: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that there will need to be the closest fit between the report of the Economic Commission for Africa and the high-level United Nations report. It is very largely true that, whatever forces the African Union can assemble, it will need a good deal more logistic help in order to make sure that they can be deployed rapidly and appropriately. That is not a matter that most African nations can take on with their current financial difficulties. I have no difficulty in giving the assurance that the noble Lord seeks.
	There are some signs of an overall reduction in the number of places in which wars are being fought. That is not a complacent view and does not mean that the situation could not again become more difficult. But there is willingness to open negotiations on an international arms trade treaty no later than 2006 and Africa is very much in view in that. There is a new United Nations peace-building commission, and flexible resources for the AU's role in conflict prevention and resolution—the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Ensuring that corporate activities and the exploitation of natural resources do not fuel conflicts is, in my view, ethically just as important—maybe even crucial—because it is our hands. It has so often been the case that prosperous countries have fuelled the very conflicts that we look at with such dismay. We must be clear that we are not going along that path.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness, but the time is up for questions.

The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I want to concentrate on the offence of incitement to religious hatred, which is once again before us. I do so partly because I had the privilege of serving on the Select Committee on Religious Offences set up following the removal of the clause on religious hatred from the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill of 2001 and the subsequent production of the Religious Offences Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury.
	Although our committee agreed that,
	"there is a gap in the law as it stands",
	we were unable to recommend how that gap could be filled. I suggest that disagreement arises because people have very different perceptions, for obvious reasons. Some believe that equal protection should be given to the cherished beliefs and practices of all religious groups—I shall return to that point later. The gap that the Bill addresses in Clause 119 and Schedule 10 is narrower, but the Bill is to be commended in its implications for the protection of religious as well as non-religious groups.
	The Bill proscribes actions which, by inciting hatred on grounds of religion, constitute a threat to the safety and wellbeing of those who find themselves the object of hatred. We are dealing here not with religious argument, which causes controversy or offence—and perhaps requires what is sometimes called a theological sense of humour, with which some of us are better endowed than others—but with words, behaviour and material that generate acute feelings of fear, insecurity and humiliation and which damage the fabric of society. That threshold is not always easy to define.
	There is a sense of injustice at the legal anomaly that while Jews and Sikhs are afforded protection from incitement to hatred by their status as racial groups for the purposes of race relations legislation, members of other religions are not. It is important for the justice and cohesion of our society that protection against incitement to hatred should extend not only to adherents of religions but to people of all beliefs. That is offered by the definition of religious hatred in Schedule 10.
	Some believe that the measure is unnecessary because existing public order legislation, including provision for religious motives to be taken into account as aggravating factors in various offences, already prohibit religious hate crimes. I confess to some perplexity about the apparent ineffectiveness of this battery of laws. However, experience shows that many minority groups, particularly in our cities and especially, though not exclusively, in Muslim communities, suffer intimidation and feel vulnerable because of a persistent stream of vicious verbal attacks on their religion—a point made to me in conversation by the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Birmingham, Vincent Nichols, reflecting the minds of his local faith leaders' forum.
	According to the Association of Chief Police Officers, religious identity is often being used as a cover for attacks on racial grounds that would be illegal if mounted in those terms. I am aware that an amendment to the schedule devised by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, attempts to meet that point by introducing the notion of religion as a pretext for racial hatred. On balance, although I am prepared to lock horns with his silver tongue—if that is not mixing metaphors—I am not sure that the amendment covers all the cases with which we should be concerned. Incitement to hatred on grounds of religion is always wrong, whether or not religion is functioning as a proxy for racial antagonism.
	Some people, both inside and outside the Churches, believe that the provision will seriously inhibit freedom of speech and induce self-censorship on the subject of religion. That is an understandable concern which has received recent press comment. It is for the health of Society, and for the health of religions themselves, that religious beliefs and practices should be subject to criticism, debate, humour and satire, even where that is deemed unfair or even offensive whether by the religious adherents in question or in a changing climate of public opinion—they are not always the same thing.
	I am encouraged by the recent conclusion of the eight report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights that the measures proposed in the Bill are unlikely to give rise to any violation of the right to freedom of expression under Article 10 of the European Convention, partly because Article 17 denies the right to engage in acts destructive of the rights and freedoms of others.
	The committee also noted that the definition of the offence in the Bill sets a higher threshold than the equivalent Danish legislation. I add that the threshold is also higher than that in the Racial and Religious Toleration Act of the state of Victoria, which has caused anxiety as a result of the conviction of Christian pastors for anti-Islamic statements. That law proscribes words or conduct with the effect of inciting not merely hatred but,
	"severe contempt, revulsion or severe ridicule".
	That threshold is dangerously low, and I am relieved that the proposal as drafted takes us well beyond that, though it could do with being higher.
	There is one further matter on which I must touch in conclusion. The existence of the laws on blasphemy, which apply only to Christianity, and in particular to the Church of England, is a product of history that has become an anomaly in today's society. The notion that the blasphemy laws should be extended to protect all faiths is incoherent, because blasphemy has meaning only within the context of a particular religion, or a society with a single religion, and it is inappropriate, because it is not beliefs and practices that should be protected from attack, but people. That is a distinction cogently argued by the British Humanist Association, which I am delighted to quote on this particular occasion.
	Repealing the laws of blasphemy and blasphemous libel at the same time as we pass this measure, suitably amended—I made my position on this clear in a helpful conversation with the Home Secretary—would send a clear signal that incitement to religious hatred is not about shielding religion from criticism, vilification or mockery, but defending people from real harm done in the name of religion. That is why I regard this part of the Bill as meriting our attention and scrutiny, rather than being dismissed out of hand.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, with whose speech I agree in its entirety. Unfortunately, I cannot sit down, because there are one or two other things that I need to say. I also very much agree with the thrust of the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth, especially in relation to the pressing need to repeal the common law offences of blasphemy. In view of the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, perhaps I should declare that I am, indeed, a lawyer, a secular Jew and I have worked in race relations for some 40 years. I am not sure whether I am speaking more as a lawyer, as a campaigner for equality or all those things, but I agree with her that no one has a monopoly, whether as a former member of the Security Service or as a former or practising member of the Bar in all these difficult questions.
	I am grateful to the Minister and her team and to the Attorney-General and his team for having discussed with me my concerns about the proposed new offences of stirring up religious hatred. I have also benefited from discussions with representatives of the Muslim community and other faith and secular groups with very different points of view.
	I draw the attention of the House to the important article by Rahila Gupta, in Saturday's Guardian, which illustrates some of the unintended adverse consequences if these offences were to become law. Ms Gupta wrote that, if the Government mean to extend a hand of friendship to embattled Muslim communities, they would surely do better to tackle the poverty that so many suffer, or the low level of educational attainment among their children, or to ensure that the Government's anti-terrorist legislation respects the human rights of those people—mainly Muslims—who are subject to its operation.
	In Ms Gupta's well-informed view, the very presence of the proposed law would strengthen the voices of religious intolerance and choke off women's right to dissent in male-dominated religious groups. All the groups that I have met have been dominated almost exclusively by males. In his wise article in today's Times, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, explained why the new law would be likely to stir up disharmony, rather than to resolve it. I agree with that, too.
	On these Benches, we regret that the Government have decided to include in an important Bill, designed to tackle serious organised crime, provisions which are sweepingly broad and ambiguous in their reach and divisive in their effect.
	The Colville Select Committee, which did such valuable work, drew attention in its report to the observations of the distinguished Attorney-General of India, Soli Sorabjee, which I shall, with the leave of the House, briefly quote. He stated that,
	"experience shows that criminal laws prohibiting hate speech and expression will encourage intolerance, divisiveness and unreasonable interference with freedom of expression. Fundamentalist Christians, religious Muslims and devout Hindus would then seek to invoke the criminal machinery against each other's religion, tenets or practices. That is what is increasingly happening today in India. We need not more repressive laws but more free speech to combat bigotry and to promote tolerance".
	The Divisional Court in this country came to the same conclusion in Choudhury's case when rejecting an attempt to extend the offence of blasphemy to religions other than Christianity. I acted as counsel for Viking Penguin, the publishers of Salman Rushdie's novel, The Satanic Verses. As the noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza, will recall, it was a painful experience. It illustrated the danger of keeping blasphemy as a criminal offence because it encourages followers of other faiths to seek a blasphemy law to protect their faith against gross insult at the expense of free speech. One religion's faith is another's blasphemy.
	The law of blasphemy is discriminatory. It prevents a Muslim speaking about the sacred entities of Christianity in ways that would not be criminal if a Christian were to speak in similar terms about Islam. The Colville committee rightly found that hard to justify, as did the Law Commission. I was surprised and very disappointed by the DCA's recent Written Answer on 3 March suggesting that it might be appropriate to prosecute and convict someone whose material or conduct was, in its words, "gratuitously offensive to Christians". That can only encourage a body such as Christian Voice in its ignorant campaign against the BBC over "Jerry Springer—The Opera" or Sikh militants objecting to Gurpreet Kaur Bhatti's play. Our approach is significantly influenced in this debate by the Government's unwillingness to abolish the offence of blasphemy.
	The Government wish to extend the existing offences of stirring up racial hatred, as has been explained. I accept, of course, that the stirring up of hatred—especially ethnic hatred—against groups of Muslims or Hindus is as offensive as stirring up hatred against groups of Sikhs or Jews. But if the hatred is ethnic, that is largely covered by the existing offence of inciting racial hatred and the pretext cases could be covered by a narrow amendment.
	Because we on these Benches strongly believe in the equal protection of the law, we have long campaigned for comprehensive equality legislation to tackle religious and other forms of invidious discrimination and harassment, including discrimination and harassment against gay and lesbian people, who are not to be protected by this new offence.
	Although the Government say that the proposed offences are designed to protect people, the definition links people with their religious belief or lack of religious belief. "Religious belief" plainly includes belief in the teachings or practices of a religion or its followers. "Religious" means concerned with religion, and religion may include a multitude of belief systems, old and new, and not only the theistic but also the non-theistic religions, as well as sects within religions and cults—for example, scientology and the Moonies.
	"Religious hatred" means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief. "Hatred" is not defined. The proposed offences are not confined to hate crimes akin to violence; nor do they deal, for example, with stirring up hatred against people because of their sexuality, even though that is a serious social evil.
	Hatred is not an activity; it is an emotion or a state or mind. The deliberate stirring up of hatred—that is, the intense dislike—of members of a racial group is an offence, even though it creates no immediate risk of stirring up violence. That is an acceptable use of the criminal law because criminalising incitement to racial hatred does not normally threaten the right to free speech. A verbal attack on members of a racial group is an attack on their common humanity and ethnicity.
	However, in answer to my noble friend Lord Avebury, a verbal attack on members of a religious group, expressing intemperate criticism of, or hostility to, the beliefs, teachings or practices of their religion, is not an attack on their common humanity unless, in reality, it involves an attack on their ethnicity, origin and biology—for example, when it uses a religious attack to stir up racial hatred against Jews, Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims of Asian descent. A verbal attack on the followers of a religion involves an attack on religious beliefs, ideas and practices in the exercise of the right to free speech. Subject to narrow exceptions, the right to free speech applies not only to information and ideas favourably received or inoffensive but those that offend, shock or disturb.
	The proposed offences are sweepingly broad in their reach. The Bill would make it an offence to stir up religious hatred by using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or by displaying or publishing written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, or by publicly performing a play or distributing, showing or playing a recording, or broadcasting a programme involving the use of such words of behaviour. It would also make it an offence to be in possession of religiously inflammatory material intended for publication.
	Those offences would be committed not only if the defendant deliberately intended to stir up religious hatred but also where religious hatred was likely in all the circumstances to be stirred up. The offences could be committed in a public or a private place. They would be punishable on conviction on indictment by up to seven years' imprisonment or a fine, or both.
	As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has already indicated, a wide range of offences incurs higher penalties if they are motivated or aggravated by religious hostility. One is the offence in Section 4A of the Public Order Act 1986, which involves using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour or disorderly behaviour, or displaying any writing, sign or other representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, with the intention and effect of causing harassment, alarm or distress. Section 5 covers similar conduct within the sight or hearing of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress.
	Those offences cover all forms of harassment—not only racial or religious harassment but any harassment. The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 also creates a criminal offence, as well as providing civil remedies for the victims of harassment, including alarming a person or causing distress to that person. The Norwood case, which one can read about in the JCHR report, illustrates the very broad reach of the existing Public Order Act.
	In the light of this wide armoury of offences and the existing robust case law, what exactly is the gap in the criminal law which needs to be filled by further criminal offences, and where is the evidence of a serious social problem which cannot be dealt with under the existing law?
	I asked the Home Office to answer that question. It explained, first, the gap whereby Jews and Sikhs are covered by ethnic discrimination but not Muslims. It also stated that if the conduct is not likely to cause anyone present harassment, alarm or distress, then Section 5 of the Public Order Act will not apply. The Home Office gave me the following hypothetical examples of the only gap that it has been able to identify. The first is of a leader of a far-right group who gives a speech in the back room of a pub that encourages his followers to hate Muslims. The second example is of a radical Islamist preacher who circulates tapes to his followers encouraging hatred of Christians. In both situations, religious hatred is likely to be stirred up but not covered by the law. Those narrow examples could, if necessary, be dealt with by narrow and carefully tailored exceptions, but the Government have rejected that proportionate response.
	The other vice is lack of legal certainty—not over breadth, but lack of legal certainty. The former Home Secretary, David Blunkett, wrote an article in the Observer on 12 December under the title "Why we'll outlaw the persecution of belief". He asked:
	"Can it be right that hatred based on deliberate and provocative untruths about a person's religion remains unchallenged?"
	So David Blunkett, the original Home Office architect, apparently believes that the offences are designed to protect beliefs against what he terms "untruths". In similar vein, Mr Khalid Mahmood MP apparently thought that Salman Rushdie could be prosecuted for his novel under these provisions. I am sorry to take—

Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, perhaps I may respectfully say to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that every Back Bencher so far has kept within the eight minutes proposed by my noble friend the Chief Whip, which would enable us to leave the Chamber at 11.30 p.m.

Lord Baker of Dorking: My Lords, it is very difficult to prove racial hatred when a Sikh playwright writes a play about a Sikh community and performs it in a Sikh community. I would have thought that rather astonishing.
	I conclude by saying that western liberal society has to accommodate itself to Islam and it is doing that slowly over Europe and in our own country with scarves, turbans and all the other issues. But at the same time Islam has to accommodate itself to western liberal societies. The acceptance of criticism and of things which may sound very repugnant, is all part and parcel of living in our country.
	I believe that over the past three decades we have built up a general tolerance in our country. I remember Matthew Arnold's phrase,
	"We half believers of our casual truths".
	That has been one of the things which have made us less extreme in this country. Many immigrants come to this country because they like our religious toleration, the way in which we treat women equally, our rule of law and our freedom of speech. Let us not lose the last.

Baroness Henig: My Lords, I should start by declaring an interest as chair of both my own local police authority in Lancashire and of the national Association of Police Authorities, which represents all police authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
	This is an important and substantial Bill which contains many far-reaching changes. I want to focus mainly on the proposals for the new Serious Organised Crime Agency but then speak briefly on certain other aspects of the Bill.
	We have heard already that there is strong support within the policing community for the proposed new Serious Organised Crime Agency. It is not that long ago—1997—since the National Crime Squad and the National Criminal Intelligence Service were set up. Both will now make way for the new agency. I could not let this opportunity pass without paying tribute to the excellent work done by NCS and NCIS, and to the valuable contribution made by my police authority colleagues on the service authorities overseeing those squads, including in a former life, as we have already heard, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, who I am delighted to see in her place on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench.
	However, despite the good work done by NCS and NCIS, a step change is now needed to tackle the substantial challenges posed by international organised crime. SOCA is rightly not a re-badging or merging of existing national bodies; it is about creating a new body with the capacity and capability to tackle the highly sophisticated and professional criminals who trade globally in human misery such as drugs and people trafficking.
	I know that many in the service, including the Police Federation, have argued strongly and passionately that police officers transferring to SOCA should retain their status as constables. The office of constable is rightly highly valued but I am not convinced that that is the way forward. SOCA needs to be able to bring together a wide range of expertise and specialist skills into a cohesive whole. It needs to be a modern 21st century body with a new culture able to work across traditional roles and boundaries.
	But in removing horizontal barriers to defeating serious crime we must take care not to create vertical ones instead. There is no doubt that the formation of NCS and NCIS led to what is known as the "level 2" gap which has opened up in tackling crime that crosses command unit and force boundaries. It is important that the creation of SOCA does not exacerbate that. Much as it would be convenient for us if they did so, criminals do not organise their activities into neat compartments.
	Last week, I welcomed on behalf of all police authorities the Government's commitment to revitalising neighbourhood policing. It is in our neighbourhoods that the impact and effects of serious organised crime are most acutely felt. If SOCA is to succeed in reducing that harm, it will need to work hand in glove with local police forces, as the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, rightly emphasised.
	There needs to be a seamless approach to tackling criminality at local, force and national level. As we have seen from the hard lessons learned in the United States, community intelligence is often key and will be crucial to SOCA's effectiveness. We need to be sure that SOCA goes about its business in a way which supports local efforts to build cohesion and confidence within our diverse communities in policing and law enforcement.
	Unfortunately, police authorities are not persuaded at present that the proposed governance arrangements for SOCA will secure the connectivity needed. There is no provision for local policing to have a direct voice on the SOCA board. Instead, we understand that the non-executive directors will be appointed on a personal basis. There would be much greater confidence about this among police authorities and forces if there was credible and current representation from local policing interests on the SOCA board.
	Disappointingly, the Bill does not even make explicit provision for SOCA to consult with police authorities and forces in setting its annual priorities or plans, as a previous speaker has already pointed out. The chairman designate is on record as saying that SOCA needs to take account of the public's concerns in developing its priorities. But rather than, as has been suggested, using media column inches as a proxy for this, why not seek the views of police authorities who represent those communities and know the impact of serious crime locally? We are assured by the Government that such consultation will take place, but in that case, why not say so on the face of the Bill?
	These are constructive criticisms intended to improve the Bill. The Association of Police Authorities will, whatever the outcome, work closely with Ministers and the chairman and director general designate to ensure a smooth transition and to get SOCA off to the best possible start.
	I now want briefly to mention a couple of issues which have caused some controversy in policing circles, the first being the provision in Part 3 of the Bill to enable the functions of custody sergeants to be carried out by police staff. Civilianisation is not new to the police service, but it was given impetus by the Police Reform Act 2002. The most visible embodiment of this, in every way, has been the introduction of police community support officers. There is no doubt that community support officers are enormously popular with our communities, providing as they do a visible and accessible presence on the streets.
	A key plank of the police reform agenda, in which government, police authorities and forces are jointly engaged, is workforce modernisation. This is about making the most effective use of the skills and expertise of the whole workforce in a more holistic and unified way.
	I absolutely agree that the custody role is an extremely important one, encompassing as it does the need to protect the welfare and the civil liberties of detainees, to challenge the decisions of investigating officers and to secure the integrity of evidence. I know that the proposals have provoked strong opposition from the Police Federation and many serving officers—and the concerns of practitioners should not be dismissed lightly—but I am still not convinced that there is any reason why a suitably trained and skilled member of staff could not take on this role and exercise the same independence and integrity as a police officer.
	Certainly in relation to the need to work more effectively in bringing offenders to justice, my experience as a magistrate indicates that what matters is that those who take on this role are able to ensure that the right charge is laid and that there is proper liaison with the CPS.
	The key point here is that the clause is an enabling one. It would allow this approach to be piloted, as my noble friend the Minister has already pointed out, and would give police authorities and chief officers who wish to do so the flexibility to move in this direction. I believe that gradually that is what will happen.
	Secondly, the Bill makes provision to extend the powers available to PCSOs. As I said earlier, they are a great success and the recent additional resources for more of them have been welcomed by all my police authority colleagues. However, there are mixed views about giving PCSOs more powers, prompted by concerns that we risk losing their distinctive value—their capacity to be out and about on the streets and accessible to our communities. As has been said already, this aspect of the Bill will need careful examination.
	I want quickly to welcome Clause 152 and the proposed new duty on police authorities to give local people information about policing in their area. Indeed, this simply codifies good practice already happening around the country. While there may be a need to discuss the detail of the provisions to ensure that they support authorities' efforts to reach as widely as possible into our communities, the principle has strong support.
	I shall not touch on any other aspects of the Bill. There is much to be commended in the Bill, but there is also much that will benefit from your Lordships' usual rigorous and careful scrutiny in its subsequent stages.

Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I agree with much of the core business of the Bill. However, I should add that I agree with the main range of points made in the speeches of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Baker, and the noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza.
	I begin by asking for the indulgence—and possibly the forgiveness—of the right reverend Prelates who are normally in their places on the Benches designated for them. It is not sufficient to plead that some of my best friends are bishops—true though that be, perhaps. There is a story told of a bishop who rose to preach in a very distinguished city church and, almost before he could utter the opening words of incantation, a voice cried out—not from the wilderness, this was a city church, but from the right-hand aisle—"All bishops are charlatans and conmen". Before he could think of a witty and, of course, humble rebuff, a voice called out from the left aisle: "That is an insult and lie." His relief and gratitude spilled over. To the voice from the left he called, "I didn't know you were a bishop!" To which the reply came: "I'm not. I'm a charlatan and a conman".
	The point of the story is that offence perceived is not always the same as offence given or intended. That lies at the centre of some of the problems I have with aspects of the Bill. Criticism is easily perceived as enmity, and remarks made by way of criticism are as easily perceived as attacks against the holder of those beliefs as against the beliefs in question.
	It is argued that the Bill distinguishes between the person and the beliefs. I look, not as a bishop, a politician or a lawyer, but as a simple philosopher of religion, at the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, and I am encouraged when I read that the offences are designated to include hatred against a group where hatred is not directed against the religious belief. That almost reassures me.
	I turn to Schedule 10 to the Bill, however, and read:
	"In this Part 'religious hatred' means hatred against a group of person defined by reference to religious belief".
	The Bill specifies that the persons in question are defined by reference to religious beliefs. I submit that these are not separated in ways that are clear and manageable under law. For example, if you criticise my belief that one day Scotland will win the Grand Slam, I can live with that, because such a belief does not define me in any essential way. However, if you criticise my belief in democratic processes, in the importance of education and in the essential distinction between truth and falsehood, then it is I who begin to feel criticised and indeed threatened, not my system of beliefs alone. Mutatis mutandis, the same applies to religious believers, be they Christians, Muslims, Sikhs or Jews.
	The Bill depends upon a clear distinction between the beliefs and the believer, and yet, at the heart of the Bill, the believer is defined with reference to the religious beliefs they hold. It is not conceivable that one can mount a reasonable analysis and perhaps criticism of the beliefs of specific religions and not run the temptation that many will take these to be criticisms of the believers in question. That is because—rightly, the Bill implies—the two are intimately bound up. Religious belief is such that the character of the belief defines the individual in a way that many other peripheral beliefs do not and thus can be cast aside, chosen or rejected.
	The same is true of religious beliefs. Once adopted, the character of the individual is defined in very deep ways, which this Bill runs the risk of pulling to the surface in a possibly disruptive fashion.
	The conclusion of my argument runs thus: insult and offence can be taken when not intended, and, as a consequence, will often be assumed to have been intended. Furthermore—this is a point in the Bill that I have not gone into, but it may well come up in Committee— someone's religious hatred may be stirred up by reading or hearing of opinions that are not sourced in religious hatred. Who, in terms of the Bill, can predict when that is likely—not least in the days of the Internet and the worldwide web?
	Criticisms of the beliefs of someone whose dominant group is defined by those beliefs is ipso facto implied criticism of that group, and will be read as such by both believers and, perhaps worse, by those whose motives and intentions are seriously unworthy. I submit to your Lordships that the composite of issues surrounding this proposed legislation will inhibit the reasonable, constructive and free expression of criticisms of religious belief, and, in so doing, will impoverish our culture and our community.

Lord Plant of Highfield: My Lords, there are many things to welcome in the Bill. I broadly support Parts 1, 2 and 3 and certainly the animal aspects of Part 4. However, a couple of issues give me concern.
	First, I refer to the restrictions on the right to demonstrate and protest in the environs of Parliament. I shall need some convincing on that. In an age when we all decry disengagement from politics, this is the wrong time to discourage deeply felt protest—which would be the effect of the legislation. In these two Houses of Parliament, we make awesome and, in some cases, awful decisions which affect the lives of millions of people at home and abroad. I see nothing wrong with those who feel strongly about these issues making their views known in a consistent and even relentless ways in the environs of Parliament. It may be that there are ways of meeting these points in relation to Parliament Square by treating the frontage of Parliament Square—I mean no disrespect—as being like a parking meter. Individuals could mount their protest there for a limited time to be followed by others; but no individual should be able to feed the meter. I have to say that I owe this ingenious proposal to my close friend the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton.
	However, I want to speak mainly about the part of the Bill dealing with incitement to religious hatred. In general, I take a liberal view of issues to do with civil liberties and religious freedom. As with most aspects of living in a liberal society, there is always a balance to be struck between freedom and equality. As the Minister said in her opening remarks, the Bill does not protect religions against ridicule, lampooning and so forth. Nevertheless the blasphemy laws do in relation to the doctrines of Christianity as understood by the Church of England. Therefore, if there is an argument in favour of extending the protection of the law to other religions without repealing the blasphemy laws, we are creating another inequality. I think that that would fuel problems about religious resentment because there would be two forms of protection for the Church of England and only one form of protection for every other form of belief. That is an important issue. It has been argued that there is an egalitarian case for protecting in particular the Islamic community on the analogy with racial identity which provides protection to Jews among others. I believe this analogy to be wrong.
	What might be a liberal view of freedom of expression? The core idea surely is that I should be free to say what I want so long as I do not harm others. The crucial question is: what is harm to others? Reasons have already been mentioned by other noble Lords. It cannot be offence to the sensibilities of others. If we sought to criminalise what offends the sensibilities of others we would be issuing a wholesale charter for interference with individual freedom. It would be an entirely subjective test. I am the only person who can say that my sensibilities have been offended.
	Harm has, I believe, to be something much stronger and more definite and objective than offended sensibility. I think there are two more objective accounts of harm: first, harm to physical security; and, secondly, harm in the sense of preventing someone else living their own life in their own way, or, putting it another way, exercising their own liberty. Those are more palpable and objective examples of harm than offended sensibility. So part of the liberal view is that the state can interfere with someone's freedom of expression when it causes harm in one or both of these senses.
	There is a further condition; namely, that the harm to others cannot be avoided by the person claiming to be harmed. Hence, to utter extremely disparaging things about a religion from a church pulpit is private to those who attend. To write disparaging things about religion in a book which others do not have to read is not sufficient to cause harm. Saying disparaging things in a play does not expose to harm those who do not go to it. So the preaching of evangelicals from their pulpits about the wrongness of other religions, the publishing of The Satanic Verses and the performance of the play which exercised Sikhs in Birmingham do not cause direct harm. The harm can be avoided by members of these communities by not going to such churches, reading such books or attending such plays.
	The fact that someone or some group finds what he or it understands to be going on in a pulpit, book or play as being deplorably offensive to his religion, even though he is not directly confronted with it, is not a good reason for seeking to ban this material. To seek to criminalise something to which you object without needing to witness it seems to me to be a form of moral egotism: assuming that everyone has to conform to your view of what is good. I can see no justification for that.
	It is sometimes argued, as it was this morning by my honourable friend Fiona Mactaggart—I have very great respect for her—that there is an analogy with race in that for many people religion is constitutive of their identity and is not a matter of free choice. I do not deny—it is true of myself—that for many people their religion is, or perhaps in my case has been, the most important thing in their lives, as perhaps being a member of the Jewish race is to a Jew. However, it seems to me that there is always a choice. For some religious groups, exercising the choice to exit the group for those who belong to it may be very painful and the exit costs are high. There is, however, still the choice and if these groups themselves became more liberalised and less authoritarian through education and the accommodation of the virtues of a liberal society, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, the exit costs would be a good deal lower.
	In addition, it has to be said, it seems to me, that religions themselves, at least implicitly, put choice into a central role in their faiths. They all have forms of encouragement and they have forms of prohibition on behaviour. There would be no sense in encouraging the adherence of a religion to do X and to abstain from Y unless people had the capacity to choose X or Y. If they have the capacity to choose X or Y then they can also choose whether or not to belong to the religion. Therefore, in my view it would be reasonable to regard some form of expression which could affect the physical security of individuals and which could prevent the freedom of those individuals to practise their own beliefs in their own way and to which exposure could not be avoided as falling within the criminal law, in principle, on a liberal point of view.
	Those circumstances exactly match the case mentioned this morning in the Times by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. As he points out, where a banner was displayed saying "Islam out of Britain" the case was prosecuted under existing criminal law. So I think that the Minister will have to explain why the sort of case mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, which can be criminalised under liberal assumptions about freedom of expression is not adequately dealt with under existing legislation. But I plead with my noble friend to go forward on the issue of repealing the blasphemy laws on which my own position follows from what I said about offended sensibility. I agree with the ancient expression, which I shall not try to quote in Latin, that offences to the gods are the concern of the gods.

Lord Bhatia: My Lords, I begin by declaring my interest as the chairman of the British Muslim Research Centre.
	I should like to make a few comments on Clause 119 of and Schedule 10 to the Bill, which deal with racial and religious hatred. I believe that the clause is all about protecting vulnerable religious communities. I have at least two main reasons why I wish to speak on this subject. First, I was one of the Select Committee members considering the Religious Offences Bill, chaired by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. Secondly, I am a Muslim and am part of the community, which at the present feels very vulnerable and is constantly under attack in all kinds of ways. I will refer to the present conditions a little later. I wish to remind the House that we must never forget that today the Muslim community is under attack, but tomorrow it could be any other faith. Therefore our approach should be that of protecting all faith communities in this country.
	The crucial issue in this Bill is about incitement. It is about dealing with people who are prepared verbally, communicating through writing or the Internet, to incite others to hate because of someone's faith. It is about ensuring that people out there who feel threatened are protected. The subject has come up for debate a number of times over the past four years. When the matter came up for debate under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill in 2001, I recall hearing from all sides of the House that there was acceptance that such a protection was necessary but that it should be brought to Parliament not under an anti-terrorism label, but under a more specific one.
	In 2002, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, introduced a Private Member's Bill that led to the appointment of the Select Committee whose report was debated the following year. As a member of the Select Committee, I heard the evidence of a lot of people of different faiths, a lot of institutions and faith community leaders, and above all the law enforcing agencies such as the police, the CPS, the Attorney-General and Home Office officials. From all law enforcing agencies the message was clear—that there was a gap in the law and it would make their job much easier if Parliament legislated to that effect.
	A few other important facts came out of the report. First, that two faith communities were already protected—the Sikh and the Jewish communities. Secondly, that by extending similar protection to all other faith communities, we may not be infringing on the freedom of speech of anyone, that legislation on freedom of speech was not absolute and that it carried responsibilities with it. In the evidence given by Muslim community leaders, it was clear that they did not wish to propose that the blasphemy law should be removed or that the Sikh and Jewish communities which had protection should lose it. All that the Muslim community was asking was to be treated equally with other faiths under the law.
	There are some 1.6 million Muslims, forming 3 per cent of the population of this country. It is the second largest faith community, a young community with problems relating to low education attainment, a high level of unemployment and a large percentage of the community living in some of the most deprived boroughs of this country. There is considerable evidence that such people in such communities feel vulnerable in a whole range of ways, but here is the double whammy: it is bad enough to be unemployed and suffering from deprivation, but to be victims of hate because of their faith becomes very difficult to cope with.
	Since 9/11, the Muslim community has been under attack both verbally and physically at times. Our women and our children have been attacked, spat on and abused in the streets and in public. It is no longer safe for many to walk on the streets without fear. I cannot believe what I hear from some of my community members; I cannot believe that in 21st-century Britain, a section of the population have fear for their safety simply because of their faith. Does it not remind us of the terrible days of the Holocaust during the Second World War? Does it not remind us of tragedies of the former Yugoslavia in recent years? Are we all waiting for a large number of Muslims to die or be maimed or damaged before we wake up?
	Let me be a little more specific. We all hear about the possibilities of a terrorist attack on our country. Our security services are warning us about this possibility. If that was to happen, God forbid, the first faith community to be attacked within this country will be the Muslim community. Our police will, as always, have to defend the community and will also be in the front line of such attacks. Out there, there are people who are waiting to incite others to hate the Muslims, and the scenario that I have just described will be the best opportunity for them to do so. The current gap in the law will permit them to do so.
	I must pay tribute to the Prime Minister and the Government in wishing to protect the Muslim community in this country. Immediately after 9/11 it was the Prime Minister who forcefully and clearly said that it was just a handful of Muslim extremists who had carried out the atrocities of 9/11, and that the vast majority of Muslims in this country were law-abiding British citizens who needed to be protected, and protected properly, against any attacks. The police and the law-enforcement agencies were advised to ensure that appropriate protection was given. Since 2001, the Government have made various efforts to bring in provisions to fill the gap in the legislation, and I hope that this House will support the passage of Clause 119 of this Bill.
	Let us please find the reasons, the mechanism and the will to support this clause. Freedom of speech is not at risk. The Muslim community wants freedom of speech as much as any other citizens and communities in this country. The legislation as presented to us for debate complies with human rights legislation; in fact, the gap in the law currently breaches human rights legislation, because the state currently protects some faiths and not all the faiths in the same manner.
	Lastly, I remind your Lordships how this proposed legislation will work in practice, if we support it. Whenever there is an offence of incitement to hate, the victims will have to go to police to report it and the following steps will be taken before a case is brought to the court. First, the police will have to be satisfied that there is a clear incitement to hate; secondly, the police will then have to convince the CPS that there is incitement to hate; thirdly, the Attorney-General will then have to exercise his fiat that this is definitely a case to incite people to hate a group or a community or a faith group. Only then could the case be sent to the court for prosecution. Fourthly, a jury will decide whether the charge is proven and whether there is clear evidence that incitement to hate a group of people has been carried out. Finally, the court itself has to see all the evidence before the judgment is given.
	These are the hoops through which any case under this legislation, if we support it, will have to go through. My own assessment is that very few cases will even reach the courts and those that do go to the courts will have to pass the stringent tests I have described. But what this legislation will do is to draw a clear line and send a message to those who wish to incite people to hate groups of people, that society, the state and the people of this country will not allow such trouble makers, hate merchants and bigots to damage vulnerable communities in this country.

Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, I begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, on an important and thoughtful speech.
	The establishment of the Serious Organised Crime Agency is a major step forward in combating crime. It seems a logical reorganisation. I have for more than three years served on European Union Sub-Committee F, which has undertaken a number of reports covering organised crime at a European level. During our deliberations, committee members met representatives and heard presentations from the NCS, the NCIS and other relevant organisations. I have been impressed by their diligence, expertise and dedication, and I am sure that under this new agency, their efforts will be even more effective.
	I turn now to the harassment of those who work in biomedical research and veterinary research centres in this country. I recognise the heated arguments surrounding the issues of animal rights and animal research. I am a member of LAWS, the Labour Animal Welfare Society, and would be among the first to protest about unnecessary cruelty to animals. But I recognise the work carried out in research establishments which helps to overcome serious illnesses such as AIDS and Alzheimer's. As someone whose mother suffered from Alzheimer's, I know at first hand the pain that that illness can cause to the suffer and his or her relatives and the need for research into it.
	My trade union, Amicus, has many members who work in animal research and I know them as caring and sensitive beings. The homes of some of them have been attacked and their families and livelihoods threatened as a consequence of their work. I therefore welcome the Bill's proposals for the protection of those who work in the animal research field. Under the remit of other Bills, the Government have already taken positive steps to protect such workers against animal rights extremists who use violence and intimidation as tactics to prevent experimentation. Such violence and intimidation does nothing for the cause of animal welfare. It is irrational and counterproductive.
	I particularly welcome the extension of protection to individuals who are targeted and harassed and who feel isolated and vulnerable during such harassment. Being picked upon and bullied is always a nerve-wracking experience, especially when it is part of an organised campaign. The victims suffer, and fear and unease spreads to the families and friends of those who are targeted usually by a small but vociferous group of extremists.
	Peaceful leafleting against animal experimentation is one thing; threats and violence are another. I am pleased that the UK already has some of the strictest licensing in the world for the use of animals in medical research. Long may that last, and long may the search to find alternatives to animal research continue. But until animal research can be abolished, workers in research establishments need the legal protection that the Bill provides.
	I have listened very carefully to all the contributions on the incitement to religious hatred. I was interested to see the positive response to the Government's proposals from the Commission for Racial Equality. It states that,
	"these are necessary legislative measures to ensure that all are treated equally before the law",
	and that,
	"these provisions will protect the believer not the belief".
	That is a strong and unequivocal statement.
	The CRE points out that its response is informed by more than 40 years' experience of monitoring and using the existing laws against incitement to racial hatred and discrimination. With that in mind, the CRE believes that the proposed law would have a powerful deterrent effect and would set down an important societal marker to make clear that such behaviour is unacceptable in a free and democratic society. Obviously, debate will continue around these proposals.
	The question of abolishing the law of blasphemy, which has already been mentioned in the Chamber tonight, has exercised the mind of the CRE. It believes that abolition would send a clear message to those who fear that a wish to curtail their freedom to criticise or make fun of religion is behind the proposed legislation. I know that the Government are aware of the anxieties expressed about the blasphemy law. I hope that my noble friend will reassure the House that the Government will give careful consideration—possibly not in immediate legislation, but for future reckoning—to any proposals on blasphemy when amendments are tabled, as I know they will be.
	Last week, I received an interesting letter from the Open Spaces Society. Its members are worried about the effects of Clauses 125 to 128, which cover trespass on designated sites. The society was founded in 1865 and is Britain's oldest national conservation body. The society's main concern is that these clauses appear to make simple trespass—currently a civil offence—a criminal offence on certain sites. It believes that, as worded, the clauses are far too wide-ranging, especially in relation to land owned by the Crown, and that innocent people who want to enjoy freedom to roam over an area may far too easily be made into criminals. I welcome my noble friend's comments on those genuine worries.
	Finally, I wish to raise issues on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thornton, who is unable to be here this evening because of family commitments. Because of the new arrangements for SOCA, the future of the National Hi-Tech Crime Unit is bound to be profoundly affected. I understand that a decision has not yet been made about whether the investigation of online crimes against children will be part of SOCA's remit. Currently, a significant part of the resources of all the agencies involved are deployed in fighting online crimes against children. To be clear, I am referring principally to child pornography and to grooming in chat rooms. It is essential that the funds currently devoted to this work and the expertise that has been developed are not lost.
	The Virtual Global Taskforce, led by the UK's National Crime Squad, has recently been established. It brings together the national police services of the UK, Canada, Australia and the USA. Other countries are soon to join. In its embryonic form, the VGTF is the beginning of a new and reassuring police presence on the Internet. As such, it has been widely welcomed and supported by the Internet industry, children's charities and others. In these days when the Internet makes national boundaries irrelevant, it seems clear that we must maintain a clear national focus for all the work in this area, and I hope that my noble friend will be able to comment on these issues.

The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble Baroness, whose speech ranged over such wide and meaningful issues.
	I should like first to express sympathy with the Minister in her complaint about the after-effects of the Prevention of Terrorism Bill. I almost feel as though I have to pinch myself to be sure that it is not still Thursday and the clocks have not been restarted. Once again we are groping with the problems thrown up by an underworld fired up by shady deals and modern technology and frequently operating on an international scale.
	Noble Lords seem to agree that the Bills currently before Parliament or promised by the Government for the next Session represent a major new construct for policing, crime detection and justice. If these Bills represent the only way that we have to deal with these issues, it will be a major task for all of us to get it right.
	I notice from a briefing supplied by the Police Federation, and referred to by my noble friend Lady Anelay, that the Bill will change for ever the unique characteristics that have defined policing for over 175 years. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, gave a fairly full description of the concerns voiced by the Scottish Police Federation about the Bill's proposal to remove the total independence of the authority of chief constables.
	The Bill talks of the drive for consistency of approach, but that could so easily be frustrated if the relationship between the new agency and the existing police forces is not satisfactorily thought through and defined.
	It would appear that one of the ideas in the Bill is that politicians should be architecting and driving the programme, rather than mainly supervising the activities of the various police forces. Does that not mean that if you are on the receiving end of some law officer's activities, in the final analysis it will not be much use hoping that you can appeal to the Secretary of State for a review should you think that you have suffered some injustice? Does this not represent a further erosion of the separation of powers which has been such a feature of our freedoms but which has appeared to be a rather low priority for this Government?
	As we progress through the Bill, I hope that it will become a little clearer, for the Scottish context, what the relationship is to be between the Lord Advocate and the Scottish Ministers. The Lord Advocate currently has the responsibility for the prosecution of crime, the direction of prosecuting authorities and the investigation of sudden and suspicious deaths. Under Clause 23, he is to have responsibility for the direction of SOCA in Scotland. But then we have the Scottish Ministers—who are to be involved in the annual plan, in how SOCA intends to exercise its functions, and in determining the strategic priorities, the performance targets and the codes of practice. Finally, there is the Secretary of State—who will have chatted to the Ministers, but will have power to impose "a requirement" relating to any of the functions or activities of SOCA. It seems to me that there could be quite some grounds for considerable confusion among all those directors.
	If there is to be any discretion over the powers and the circumstances in which they are exercised, one has to ask whether there should not be a role for the Scottish Parliament. Given the propensity of the Scottish Parliament to stop and discuss almost any subject, I am sure that it will take the chance to look at the matter, anyway.
	I thank the Minister for her assurance that the training of officers who will find themselves operating in different spheres is in the forefront of the Government's thinking. It is important, as was voiced earlier, that those who have to come from other parts of the UK to operate in Scotland will have to know how to operate under a different system of law.
	The Law Society of Scotland has expressed some concern on a number of these issues and no doubt will wish to see amendments brought forward in Committee. In particular, it has a worry about the different duration of sentencing powers in the Bill—in Clause 49, in relation to assaults, obstruction or deception—as opposed to those that are available for the protection of police officers in similar circumstances under the Police (Scotland) Act 1967. Can the Minister tell us whether there will be any provision to bring measures in other Acts which are analogous into line with what is proposed in the Bill, or is the agency to have special protection as well as special power?
	There is a sense of approval for the proposal to extend the Private Security Industry Act 2001 to Scotland, but there is a need to clarify whether the Security Industry Authority will act as the designated body to receive and deal with complaints about the abuse of powers by precognition agents?
	The advantages of such a body as we are being asked to consider were most usefully elaborated particularly by those Members of your Lordships' House who have had intimate police experience. I was most interested in the improvements suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, in her most interesting speech. There are aspects that will need close attention, but I am prepared to welcome the Bill.

Lord Imbert: My Lords, I shall not keep your Lordships long with my contribution to this most important debate, but I hope that what I do say may have desirable and useful effects and give us pause for thought on the future hierarchical structure of a national Serious Organised Crime Agency and on its methods of working, selection of targets and processing of suspects and persons arrested for crime.
	If it is necessary for me to establish my credentials in respect of this subject, I point out to your Lordships that it is now some 16 years since the then Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police—a chap called Imbert—in the annual police research foundation lecture in London's Guildhall called for the establishment of a countrywide organisation responsible for the investigation and resolution of serious cross-border national and international organised crime. Inevitably, on the following day the press headlined it as:
	"Commissioner's Call for a British FBI".
	That was not what had been called for, but neither was a call made for a major law enforcement agency that could effectively be directed by a politician—both now or at any time in the future.
	I still fully support the creation of a national, single co-ordinated investigative agency, which would undoubtedly enhance this country's ability significantly to reduce serious and organised crime. But I will briefly outline the concerns that I hold about some provisions in the Bill. I reiterate my concern that a politician who will appoint both the chairman and the director-general of the agency will, or may have, influence—indeed, amounting almost to direction—over the selection of targets and the use of agency personnel.
	The first chairman of the agency is to be the former head of the Security Service, M15. Although I hold this man in very high regard, one can but wonder whether the selection of targets may lean towards those whom that service might wish to investigate by agents, who, under the provisions of the Bill, are invested with the power of constables. Of course, at this time of grave terrorist threat, that may be both sensible and desirable, but such fundamental changes must surely be done with our eyes wide open. It is also worth asking whether this hierarchical structure is in fact the first political chipping away of the dictum of Lord Denning, when he spoke of chief constables and, by extension, of the power of constables. I shall not weary noble Lords with the whole dictum because the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, has already touched upon it, but the important part was:
	"No Minister of the Crown can tell him"—
	that is, the constable—
	"that he must or must not keep observation on this place or that . . . The responsibility of law enforcement lies on him. He is answerable to the law alone".
	The first director general of the agency is to be Mr William Hughes, a senior police officer of wisdom, professional ability, experience and integrity, but we are surely bound to reflect that, under the Bill, a future Home Secretary could select whomever he wishes. That is nothing less than the political appointment of a person who will have the vast resources of the agency at his disposal to be used as he, the chairman of the agency and/or the Home Secretary may decide.
	I will conclude on one other point, which has already been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie. It relates to Clauses 116 and 117, which make provision for the post of custody sergeant to be held by a person with no police experience whatever. I note what the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, said in opening the debate: that that is not compulsory on chief constables but a matter for them; the Bill them the opportunity to do that if they so wish. But the reality is that police authorities will seize on that and, erroneously, think that that will save them money or get more supervisors out on the streets.
	The noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, suggested the rank of station sergeant as senior sergeant, and I support the return of that, having held that rank in the Metropolitan Police about 150 years ago. He is the person who has responsibility for those under his command in an operational situation. That should be carefully considered.
	If we are to civilianise that post, we must remember that police have a duty of care towards those who have been arrested and it is the custody officer's responsibility to decide whether the arrested person should be detained or released—in fact, to make decisions affecting an arrested person's human rights. Theoretically, a person with legal training and well-versed in the provisions of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 with full knowledge of the rules and regulations relating to the detention, care of, access to and questioning of detained persons could pass a paper examination to qualify them for that post.
	That is not enough. The rank of sergeant was not selected by accident. He or she has passed the necessary exams to show knowledge of police and criminal law and procedures, but the real qualification for such a responsible job is learnt at the college of hard knocks, where officers, in their careers, have dealt with violence, drunken louts, domestic disputes and abuse and vicious criminality. Intellectual ability and academic qualifications are no substitute for experience.
	Should that provision be implemented, the safety and well-being of detainees will be placed in jeopardy if the role of custody sergeant is given to an undoubtedly intelligent but grossly inexperienced member of civil staff. I am aware that those clauses were opportunistically inserted in the Bill following comments by the previous Chief Inspector of Constabulary about the civilianisatian of police posts. Both he and the present chief inspector, Sir Ronnie Flanagan, are fine fellows. But I would wager that if they were still chief constables, they would treat the provision warily and find other, more suitable posts to civilianise.
	I am pleased to support the creation of the Serious and Organised Crime Agency. I fully support that, but I hope that the Government will take note of the points made by me and other noble Lords. I only wish that I was young enough and bright enough to compete for one of the senior detective posts in that agency.

The Earl of Selborne: My Lords, I suspect that my intervention will be rather more supportive of the Government than the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, which I greatly enjoyed. I, like the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and my noble friend Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, will confine my remarks to the parts of the Bill that refer to redressing the damage and the dangers caused by animal extremists and the problems that they cause particularly to the biosciences and to those even loosely connected with research using live animals.
	I refer to the excellent Select Committee on Scientific Procedures of which my noble friend Lord Soulsby is a member, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, which took place about two or three years ago. It reported on the evolution of regulation of animal experiments.
	It has been noted earlier that there was the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, which is the bedrock on which the present legislation is based. There has been increasing interest in the need to legislate, which has taken place in this House from time to time, led by advice from the Animal Procedures Committee. That is a body which includes a wide range of interests.
	It is greatly to the credit of this country that we have the strongest regulation as regards animal experiments of any country. That is borne out in the Select Committee report. Paragraph 1.15 of the report states,
	"Virtually all witnesses agreed that the United Kingdom has the tightest system of regulation in the world".
	So it is not surprising that this committee and Parliament and the vast majority of people in this country conclude, according to the report,
	"It is morally acceptable for human beings to use other animals, but it is morally wrong to cause them unnecessary or avoidable suffering".
	But the problem is that we are a compassionate nation and that those who quite rightly lobby, protest and try to make their views quite legitimately known on animal welfare issues, very often give succour to those who have no intention of doing it legally and who have—as is quite clear from the evidence of what has happened at Oxford and Cambridge universities, the Wycombe Laboratory and many other places— flouted the law. If justification is required for the provisions in this Bill it is the failure of the present criminal jurisdiction to deal with these very effective extremist campaigns. It is the fact that in many ways they are setting the agenda, demonstrated by the need to legislate further in this Bill.
	I refer to another report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology which appeared about four or five years ago. The committee was chaired by my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding. The report was entitled Science and Society. It drew attention to the frequent lack of transparency and the need for a much better understanding of the benefits that society can derive from science, particularly in the pharmaceutical field and biosciences. The fact is that so many extremists appear to get away with harassment and criminal activity without being taken to task by people who would otherwise be expected to give support to upholding the law.
	I quote once more from the Select Committee report on animals and scientific procedures. It said,
	"We consider that the availability to the public of regularly updated good quality information on what animal experiments are done and why is vital to create an atmosphere in which the issue of animal experimentation can be discussed productively".
	Since that committee reported the situation has got worse. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support the Government in bringing forward these measures. It is clearly quite unacceptable that people can be harassed and intimidated not just for being employed by the companies involved in research using live animals, but for supplying them or for being related to employees. The case history is now becoming long and extremely sinister.
	The expression "co-ordinated home visits" is very sinister. Groups of people are targeted because of their connections with animal research. This Bill seeks to recognise the reality of what the visits mean. It is a very intimidating experience.
	Because the noble Lords, Lord Turnberg and my noble friend Lord Soulsby have said with much greater authority than I can just how welcome these provisions are, and because every person who has spoken in the debate so far has referred to these clauses and welcomed them, including the spokesmen on the Front Bench, there is nothing more that I need say but to give the Government my wholehearted support.

Lord Drayson: My Lords, I rise to speak in support of the clauses in the Bill that aim to address the growing threat of animal rights extremism. I declare an interest, in that during my career I have experienced this problem in my past roles as chief executive of a biotechnology company and chairman of the BioIndustry Association. I am no longer active in business, but I remain convinced of the urgent need to tackle this problem.
	These extremists are targeting many diverse types of organisation, either those involved directly in animal research or those in a business or support relationship to institutes carrying it out. These have included universities, many pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies, contract research businesses and their suppliers. These have included banks, stockbrokers, insurance companies and couriers. Other establishments, which one would not normally ordinarily associate with this problem, have also been targeted and include airports, newspapers, a cinema and even a girls' school.
	Bioscience has made an enormous contribution to improving our health and quality of life. The UK bioscience industry is the second most successful in the world, indirectly and directly employing over one-third of a million people. Only the United States has discovered and developed more important drugs. This success is built upon the excellence of the science in our universities, where over 65 per cent of all medical research is carried out. However, animal extremism is undermining this success and casting a dark shadow over this vital work.
	I will not repeat the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Turnberg and Lord Soulsby, and by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, with which I agree. I would like to highlight that a lot of progress is being made by the biotech industry in developing alternatives to animal testing, such as tissue cell cultures and computer modelling. In fact, since 1987 the number of animal procedures has reduced by 22 per cent and in the commercial sector has halved. However, despite this, the elimination of animal testing is, regrettably, not possible and it is unlikely to be so for some time yet.
	When I was chairman of the BIA three years ago, animal rights extremism was regarded as the single biggest threat to the bioscience industry and one that was undermining our ability to develop it further. Since then, the problem has got worse. Many scientists, both in the public and private sectors, in business and in academia, live in fear. They are afraid to speak out in case they become targets; many that are targeted often quietly capitulate and resign; and one by one the suppliers to research companies are picked off until there is no one left who will work with the company. Few have the courage and resilience to fight against this level of sustained attack.
	Let me give your Lordships some data. In 2002, 113 companies were targeted by extremists in the UK; in 2003, the number had risen to 203 companies; and last year it was 313 companies. In January of this year, the latest month for which figures are available, six companies stopped supplying the industry following threats; there were 20 incidents of damage to private property and vehicles; and on 10 occasions people were harassed at the their homes. This is in just one month.
	The numbers, depressing though they are, do not fully reflect the horror of what is going on. Harassment at home does not sound too bad until you realise what it involves. I remember a colleague of mine who, as research director of a local biotechnology company, had been frequently targeted at home. The last straw for him was when he received a call late at night from an extremist describing how they had followed his children to school.
	Let me read your Lordships a verbatim description from one of the victims of these harassment campaigns.
	"It started with a threatening phone call . . . It progressed to threats through the post, which got more and more aggressive as time went on.
	"It culminated . . . with an explosion outside the house in which both my car and my husband's car were firebombed.
	"The neighbours have also been targeted and have been told their neighbour is an animal abuser or a child molester.
	"It did affect us dreadfully. It really is frightening and life- changing. I was off work for some time. For a while I could not go out of the house.
	"You feel very vulnerable every time you leave the house and worry that someone is following you.
	"I am doing an ordinary job in a legitimate industry and I am being threatened purely because of this. It should not be allowed".
	She is right, it should not.
	These extremists are using violence and intimidation to prevent people carrying out activities which are not only essential to the development of life-saving medicines but are required by law. As we have heard, under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act the Government require the testing of medicines on animals to ensure their safety. This policy is common to all medicine regulations throughout the world. Given that the law requires animal research to be undertaken, the law must provide sufficient protection to the people we ask to carry it out.
	Despite the Government's best efforts, the existing legislation does not provide an adequate framework to address this problem. The extremists are operating in a grey area and it will not be possible to counter this threat without the additional legislation set out in Clauses 121 to 123 and 142 to 146 of the Bill, in particular to address these tactics of harassment at people's homes, interference with contractual relationships and intimidation of people associated with organisations carrying out the research.
	It is unlikely that this legislation will provide a definitive solution to the problem of animal rights extremism. I urge the Government to ensure that the police have sufficient resources to counter the threat and to work with the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts to keep the situation under review and to identify new initiatives as the extremists continue to evolve their activities, as I am sure they will.
	These extremists are adept at exploiting the freedoms that our democracy provides, to hurt and intimidate others. We must pass legislation that is smart enough to prevent such abuses while allowing lawful protest. I have every confidence that your Lordships, using the skill and good sense that I have witnessed in my short time in this House, will achieve that objective, and I support these clauses in the Bill.

Lord Pendry: My Lords, I am very pleased to speak in this important debate on a Bill which I am sure will lead to added protections for Britain's communities. As my noble friend the Minister has already pointed out, this Government have a very strong record of tackling crime and have introduced several pieces of legislation which collectively have helped to reduce crime levels and target criminals.
	I recognise that the Bill proposes measures which will extend still further protection from crime, from the most serious organised forms to low-level though no less important anti-social behaviour, and I broadly commend the Government's intentions in that regard. However, I should like to discuss one element of the Bill which concerns me.
	The Bill proposes to extend the remit of the Security Industry Authority—a body set up by the Private Security Industry Act 2001 ostensibly to tackle wheel clampers, doormen and bouncers—to cover Scotland. There is little wrong with that in principle but the Government must clarify the role of the Security Industry Authority in relation to football stewards to ensure that they do not introduce just as much confusion into Scotland as currently reigns in England.
	I am sure I need not remind noble Lords that I am president of the Football Foundation having previously served as chairman of that body and its predecessor the Football Trust, bodies which, following the terrible tragedy at Hillsborough in 1991, played a key role in the evolution in the standards of football safety. After many years of investment through the Football Foundation and the Football Stadium Improvement Trust, football grounds up and down the country are almost unrecognisably improved. Now all Football League, Premiership and international football venues in England are universally better equipped to provide a safe, enjoyable environment in which to watch and support football.
	As stadia have improved, rising standards in stewarding at football have added to the level of community protection providing a major safeguard to deal with trouble at grounds. Football clubs have invested a huge amount in the training of stewards and there is now a dedicated football stewarding qualification, the FSQ.
	I understand from the Football Association that football has developed further its training package and now offers a certificate in event and matchday stewarding with further plans for specific training in conflict resolution. This qualification has now been submitted to the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority for approval within the national qualifications framework. I pay tribute to the Football Association, the FA Premier League and the Football League for the commitment that they and their clubs have made in this welcome development.
	To noble Lords who have not engaged with this issue for a long period of time, I should explain that ground safety arrangements are covered by two specific Acts of Parliament: the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975; and the Football Spectators Act 1989. As a result football stewards are licensed by local authorities and the Football Licensing Authority, an executive body of the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. These measures have brought with them tangible signs of success. The latest figures of the Football Licensing Authority show that of some 38 million people going to league and international football only around 1,500 were injured at grounds with 90 per cent of those injuries treatable on site. Indeed, the latest government statistics illustrate the point further, showing a 10 per cent year on year reduction in disorder. In answer to a Written Question from the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, stated that the multi-agency strategy,
	"is working and football stadia in England and Wales are now among the safest and most secure in the world".—[Official Report, 7/03/05; col. WA 68.]
	Yet despite that success, football clubs and football authorities have found themselves threatened by an additional and, I would argue, entirely unnecessary regulatory burden in the recent past from the Security Industry Authority which wishes to duplicate the work of other licensing agencies by licensing football stewards. Last October, as chairman of the Cabinet Office's Better Regulation Task Force, David Arculus said:
	"Over-zealous interpretation of regulation by Government regulators and industry bodies is one of the factors leading to layers of red tape winding their way around businesses and the public. This regulatory creep is the 'hidden menace' of red tape".
	The involvement of the SIA in football is a case in point of that type of regulatory creep, and is therefore not only counter-intuitive but also contrary to the Government's own best practice guidance. It should also be noted that the football industry was never consulted on this matter during the passage of the Private Security Industry Bill through Parliament. Moreover, the then Home Office Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, commented specifically during debate on the Private Security Industry Bill that if football stewards are,
	"provided in house, they will not be subject to regulation because it will be assumed that the company, the football club, will have properly trained them and will be responsible for improving standards and so forth".—[Official Report, 18/12/2002; col. 599.]
	I shall be bold and suggest that it was clearly therefore never the Government's intention that the SIA should have a role in football, given that it so clearly duplicates the work of the Football Licensing Authority and the local authorities. This Bill proposes to extend the SIA's remit to Scotland, providing the Government with the opportunity to clarify their position on football stewards and the SIA. Therefore, I call on the Minister to take this opportunity to assure me that they will exempt football from the Private Security Industry Act 2001 on the basis that equivalent protections are already in place with local authorities and the Football Licensing Authority. If she cannot make that declaration today, which I would understand, will she at least agree to meet with me and representatives of the football industry so that we can consider in advance of Committee stage whether we might need to table an amendment on this issue?

Lord Selsdon: My Lords, what a wonderful Bill! It reminds me of almost my first Christmas stocking, a rather darned, grey one, which had things in that you fiddled around with in the dark. I found that I did not like Brazil nuts, or oranges really, although they were rare.
	I shall speak today about persecution; persecution and prejudice; the persecution of those in medical research and the persecution of those who hold their religion dear. I must be careful after the warning given by the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, about lawyers and judges. I shall prefix my speech with the words, "without prejudice", should I fail to cause harm. The words, "without prejudice" do not carry any meaning unless they are written at the top of a letter that you write. So I will leave the medical side alone. I declare an interest as president of the Anglo-Swiss Society. I can tell your Lordships that Swiss companies are no longer investing in the United Kingdom because of fear, and they may well withdraw. That is enough of that, so I shall turn to religion.
	I shall go back to two great debates that were moved by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, one in October 1999, and the other in April 2003. On that day in 2003, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth was in charge of Prayers, and he used that classic prayer that says, "setting aside all private interests, prejudices and partial affections". I am going to set aside the first two, but I do have a partial affection for religion. Over my life, I have traded insults, sometimes traded punches, I have been in trade, and I have always held that religion is effectively the word.
	My Latin taught me:
	"Abstract nouns in 'io' call Feminina one and all Masculin can only be things that you can touch or see".
	But you cannot actually touch or see religion; it is all around. I remember almost crying as a small boy when I told my mother that I could not see God, and I asked what was wrong with my eyes. Then later I learned; was God masculine, feminine or neuter? When your Lordships listen to the right reverend Prelates, they have got it wrong, because they are ambidextrous. Some of them say, "Our Father, who art in Heaven", and others say, "Our Father, which art in Heaven". They also mix up, "on Earth" and, "in Earth". I was always told that this was because of the original Latin, that it was neuter; and therefore I assumed that God was neuter, but he might be equally friendly to both male and female.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I take objection to that comment. I was merely seeking advice from my noble and learned friend as to whether I should disclose that not only am I associated, as is the noble Lord, with a number of Christian organisations, but I have also been a Shabbas goy. Those factors were important, bearing in mind what the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, was saying. I was listening to the noble Baroness. I have now made my disclosures and the whole House can share in them.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, we now come to the concluding part of this important debate.
	My noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond said that it would have been preferable to limit the Bill to setting up the Serious Organised Crime Agency, rather than tagging on a multitude of other measures. I agree with her. I counted no fewer than 22 other measures included in this Bill. Some, of course, are necessary, but others give an impression that the Home Office, in anticipation of an early election, has emptied its criminal justice tray and now has a serious Bill with a rag-bag of issues attached to it.
	First, I thank the Minister for introducing and explaining the provisions of the Bill. Issues such as protesting in Parliament Square or searching someone on suspicion of possession of fireworks or power or arrest for dropping a sweet paper cannot be ignored. The danger is that time is not on our side, owing to the intervening general election. This would mean that we either throw out the baby with the bathwater or, alternatively, give serious consideration to setting up the crime agency in preference to other hasty measures. I give warning that this will happen if a wash-up session is found to be necessary. The Minister can therefore conclude that with proper scrutiny the main objective of setting up a dedicated SOCA will receive our support.
	Serious crime is on the increase and we must remain one step ahead of organised criminals. It will require new powers and new methods to keep ahead of sophisticated criminals, who see no difference between local, national and international geographical boundaries. No longer can agencies work in isolation; we need to add an international dimension to our investigative work.
	Events of the past few weeks have demonstrated how inadequate we are in dealing with serious crime. Let me cite three examples. First, the Chief Constable of the Nottinghamshire Police is on record as saying that he is unable to cope with the demands of investigating 30 murders in his area. Despite the increase in police numbers, it is still the case that paperwork takes much of his officers' time and he may have to invite other forces to take over some of his workload. I draw no political inference, but it is strange that our police forces are still without adequate resources.
	We are well aware of the drug dealers and their impact on our community and, in particular, on our young people. The drug dependency results in a substantial number of crimes. Despite the appointment of a drugs tsar—and then sacking him—it is clear that we have made no dent in the drug barons.
	The United Nations report makes chilling reading. The amount of opium cultivated in Afghanistan is likely to rise by more than 64 per cent. The expectations after the coalition action there have not materialised. It is a frightening situation that most of the hard drugs will end up on our shores.
	Then there are the cases of people trafficking which are appearing at frequent intervals in our courts. The Home Office estimates that there are 6,000 people under the age of 18 in this country who have been trafficked through international borders. It is obvious that people trafficking is more rewarding economically than drugs. We need better intelligence and investigative methods to deal with such vile crimes.
	The Bill, in effect, brings different agencies together to improve the results; the powers as well as the intelligence are shared. Some of the powers are not only intrusive but may be seen as oppressive. We need to look carefully at the matter of accountability when at least three agencies—the police, immigration and Customs and Excise—are brought together. We want to be absolutely sure that the Secretary of State is accountable but, more importantly, that there is parliamentary scrutiny of the powers vested in the new agency. It would be helpful if the Minister would confirm that not only the code of practice will be laid before Parliament but that there will be an affirmative procedure attached to it.
	I was a member of the former Police Complaints Authority and welcome the valuable work being done by the Independent Police Complaints Commission. I am well versed in investigating complaints against the police. This includes the role of the custody officers, which is crucial in matters of serious incidents, including deaths in custody.
	During the previous Bills on immigration matters I failed on a number of occasions to bring complaints against immigration officers within the machinery of the IPCC. I did so because they have powers similar to those of a constable. I failed to convince the Minister then but I trust that she will not be surprised if I raise this matter again at a later date. SOCA, which will have enlarged powers encompassing intelligence, police and immigration, must be properly accountable to IPCC if it exceeds or misuses its powers. Can the Minister confirm that that is the intention of the Home Office.
	This is even more important now that the Secretary of State is introducing measures to allow civilian support staff to have a role in custody suites. We shall certainly give it a cautious welcome but it is important to recognise that many serious complaints have been lodged about what happens in custody suites when there is no public presence. Again we need to look at the code of practice, powers and training of such staff. We must also ensure that complaints against civilians will be investigated by the IPCC.
	This brings me to Part 3 of the Bill, which contains some breathtakingly sweeping extensions of police powers, both in relation to arrest and to the exercise of a wide range of other intrusive powers.
	Let me spell this out. The current law governing arrest, with its distinction between arrestable and non-arrestable offences, reflects an attempt to strike a balance between two important considerations: first, the right of citizens not to be deprived of liberty for disproportionate reasons, and, secondly, the need to detain people in some circumstances to protect others and to investigate crimes effectively. The Bill sweeps away this careful balance by abolishing the distinction between arrestable and non-arrestable offences. This opens up the possibility of detaining people suspected of a wide range of minor offences.
	The concept of the arrestable offence is also the basis for activating many of the police powers that have significant implications for human rights, such as detention for questioning, obtaining search warrants, taking intimate samples and delaying a suspect's right to obtain legal advice.
	It is disturbing that such intrusive powers should become potentially much more widely available, particularly as there is a wide element of discretion involved in the original arrest decision. The test of "reasonable suspicion", on which arrest depends, can involve a considerable degree of personal judgment, and will continue to do so even if, as the Bill provides, a code of practice is produced on the use of arrest powers.
	The extension of stop and search powers to include a power to stop and search for prohibited fireworks is not in itself an unreasonable provision. Like all extensions of such powers, however, it raises important questions about the potential misuse of stop and search, in particular its racially biased use, which has caused so much damage to relations between minority ethnic groups and the police.
	It is disturbing that, since the Stephen Lawrence inquiry report was published, the racial bias in the use of stop and search has become even more extreme. In 2003-04, black people were six and a half times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people, while Asian people were twice as likely.
	The same issue of potential racial bias arises in relation to the Bill's provision allowing the police to take an individual's photograph and fingerprints in a place other than a police station. Again, these are intrusive powers that, if carried out on the street, can involve an element of humiliation. Members of minority ethnic communities will need convincing that the police service, which has so far been unable to prevent its members applying stop and search powers in a racially skewed way, will be able to prevent these powers being applied in a similar manner.
	It is impossible to overstate the impact of racial disproportion in the use of police powers as an alienating effect on young black and Asian people. If this sweeping extension of powers survives in the final form of the Bill, there must be at the very least a systematic ethnic monitoring of these powers' use.
	The Bill's provision that, when juveniles breach anti-social behaviour orders, there should be a presumption in favour of reporting their names in the media, is wholly wrongly conceived. It is the reverse of the normal presumption in the case of juvenile offenders.
	The important reason why the law has provided for over 70 years that juvenile offenders should not normally be named in the media is that such reporting can hinder their rehabilitation. Moreover, in some cases, publicity has the reverse effect from what was intended, so that the young people can revel in their notoriety and become determined to live up to the "troublemaker" label given to them by the media. This consideration applies just as strongly to a young person who has breached an ASBO as it does in other cases involving juvenile offenders. Will the Minister confirm that the Youth Justice Board has expressed opposition to this provision?
	Any extension of police powers to detain citizens or intrude on their liberties should always be made with great care. We must ensure that these powers go no further than is genuinely necessary to protect the public from crime. This is at least the lesson we learnt from last week's marathon debate on the Prevention of Terrorism Bill. Significant parts of the Bill as drafted do not maintain this careful balance.
	Part 4 deals with public order and conduct in public places. The Bill's provision to create a new offence of incitement to religious hatred on the same basis as the existing offence of incitement to racial hatred has provided me with the largest mailbag apart from the Hunting Bill.
	I made a note, as far as possible, to analyse the views of noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. The breakdown of 39 speakers is as follows: eight supported the Government's provisions, 18 were against the provisions or expressed concern, and 13 have not expressed an opinion. I am sure it will be a relief if I promise not to add to this number.
	We have on our Benches my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill. My association with him dates back to the early 1960s, when he was a member of the Campaign Against Racial Discrimination, so notably chaired by the late Lord Pitt of Hampstead. My noble friend was an adviser on equality legislation to the former Home Secretary, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead. I value my noble friend's judgment and experience on race matters. We want to ensure that racial incitement, using religion as a pretext, should be covered by law. There is no dispute that our multi-religious communities have been victims of attacks and harassment, and it is on the increase.
	In conclusion, I feel honoured and humbled that the Minister quoted my support on legislation to deal with incitement to religious hatred. That was some three years ago, and I am delighted that someone took the opportunity to read my past contributions. We are not disputing the need for such legislation. As my honourable friend David Heath explained in the other place, we want our laws to be as comprehensive as possible in bearing down on crimes of either racial or religious hatred. If the noble Lord, Lord Alli, were to bring forward an amendment on homophobic hatred, I am sure that he would find support on our Benches.
	In essence, I stand by what I said in previous debates. I believe that the Government's proposal is flawed but not of bad intent. We want to support what the Government are doing but we want to find a way that will achieve that intent and not the opposite.
	I read the Government's Explanatory Notes with great care. They state that legitimate discussion, criticism or expression of antipathy or dislike of particular religions or their followers will not be caught by the offence. I ask the Minister to note the word "legitimate". How can the Government explain what is illegitimate criticism of ideas and beliefs?
	The diverse religious community has suffered much backlash in recent times. We will not be forgiven if the effect, and not the intent, of what is proposed encourages further intolerance and divisiveness.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, this has been a most intriguing and worthwhile debate. I have listened with great care since 3.7 p.m. to all that has been said. I should formally make a declaration of interest, because like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I am a member of the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, the Thomas More Society and various other Christian and ecumenical inter-faith associations, not least for many years being a Shabbas goy in my local synagogue. So I come to the debate with a modicum of understanding of some of the issues.
	I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his support and that of his party for the creation of the new agency. With some temerity I remind him and the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, that the majority of us look forward to our Christmas stocking with a sense of delight and gratitude for the gifts that are about to be bestowed on us with such generosity. It is in that spirit that we should look at the Bill because that which is contained in it is all good.
	During the debate we have discussed a number of issues. I shall try to deal with them in order, but I am conscious that we have had a seven-hour debate and slightly over 20 minutes is given to me for doing that. The issues include SOCA; the intimidation of persons connected with animal research; the incitement to religious hatred; trespass on designated sites; airguns; intercept evidence; the UN Convention against Corruption; the Serious Fraud Office; and Parliament Square—to mention only the main issues.
	I turn to some of the technical issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. I will not be able to address each and every issue, but I shall deal with two of the main points. He mentioned the parliamentary scrutiny of the code of practice in Clause 11. Clause 11 provides for codes of practice to be laid before Parliament. They are not subject to any parliamentary procedure. That really mirrors the position with the codes of practice issued to chief officers under the provisions of the Police Reform Act 2002, and we intend to continue that format.
	The noble Lord referred to key statistics on power of arrest. I gently suggest to him that the figures are not quite as sad as he would have us believe. There were 1.33 million arrests in 2003–04; but in 2003, 738,000 persons or vehicles were stopped, 15 per cent down from 2002–03. The 7 per cent of stops and searches in 2003–04 that resulted in arrests was down from 8.7 per cent the previous year.
	One of the major issues raised by a number of noble Lords—including the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, my noble friend Lady Henig, the noble Earl, Lord Rosslyn, and the noble Viscount, Lord Slim—was SOCA's relationship with police forces. SOCA is about building and strengthening links with the police service, not weakening them. We fully realise that SOCA's success, for example in deterring and disrupting criminal gangs, depends on effective integration and co-operation between it and the police services. The regular exchange of information and intelligence between SOCA and local police forces in both directions will be an essential component of that success. The new agency will continue to work closely with the police service on intelligence and operations to ensure that there is an effective link between the agency's efforts at the national level and the work being done by police forces at the local level. We should remember that the majority of people migrating to the service will be those already in NCS and NCIS. We do not need to have any great degree of concern about pulling people out of local forces.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, questioned whether a designated person will be subject to the duties and obligations of a constable as well as the powers and privileges. Where any police powers are conferred on a member of SOCA staff, the exercise of any such powers will, subject to only very limited exceptions, be subject to the same limitations that apply to constables. For example, powers of arrest and search under PACE will need to be exercised in accordance with the relevant PACE codes of practice. The only exceptions might be, for example, where certain powers are currently exercisable only by ports police. In such circumstances, there may be an operational case for conferring such powers on designated SOCA staff, in which case, the normal limitations would be disapplied.
	My noble friend Lord Mackenzie raised the issues of terms and conditions and membership of trades unions. We have made it clear that police officers transferring to SOCA will transfer on a no-detriment basis. I entirely understand that NCS officers will want to know what the SOCA terms and conditions will be, and we intend to provide a detailed package for negotiation with the unions by Easter. Approaches to dispute resolution will need to be part of those discussions. Schedule 2 amends Part 2 of the Police Reform Act 2002, to provide for SOCA to come within the remit of the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
	My noble friend Lord Harris asked about exchange of staff between the two services. The great majority of the staff will be employees of the agency, but there will be an opportunity for those outside to be seconded both ways. We could deal with that issue quite happily. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, together with the noble Earl, Lord Rosslyn, said, "What about the board? Why are we not having more people represented?". Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, asked that about police authorities too. We have made it clear that the board will comprise people with the right skills and experience. They will not be representatives of the stakeholders per se, although of course they may be. They will really be identified by virtue of the skills that they bring to the table. Needless to say, SOCA may consult those that it considers appropriate. It would be invidious to put in the Bill the whole list of all those whom it will consult, but personally I would be surprised if police authorities and other chief constables were not on that list.
	The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, raised the question of the independence of SOCA. It is suggested that the Home Secretary could determine the operations of SOCA, given his power to appoint the director general. The Bill enshrines the operational independence of the director-general and I should also point out that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and his predecessors have always appointed the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, but it has never been suggested that that in any way impinges upon the operation of the Metropolitan Police service. The same would continue.
	A number of noble Lords—the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, my noble friends Lady Henig, Lord Mackenzie and Lord Harris of Haringey, the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, and the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia—all raised issues concerning staff custody officers. The provisions in the Bill relating to the appointment of custody officers seek to confer on chief officers the ability to appoint those members of the force—be it police officers or police staff—who are the most competent, skilled and able to take on and effectively discharge the role of custody officer.
	Much of the debate has centred on whether only a police sergeant can undertake that role. A number of the respondents to our consultation on police powers recognise that a significant element of the job of a custody sergeant is process-driven and civilians could carry out those tests. Of course, I was interested in the comment made by my noble friend about the return of "Dixon of Dock Green" and we shall certainly bear that in mind.
	There is also the recognition that the principle of civilian staff performing the role of custody officer was acceptable, provided that suitable training and selection processes were in place. That is an approach with which we very much agree and the pilots will, I hope, help us to do that. My noble friend Lord Mackenzie asked us to name names. I am happy to do that in relation to who supported these powers, because they have already been outed by my noble friend Hazel Blears in another place on 18 January. She said that, in consultation, the Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Avon and Somerset, Hertfordshire and Hampshire constabularies, as well as North Yorkshire and Surrey police, were all keen to support these changes. Surrey police is one of the forces which is undertaking a major workforce modernisation pilot, redesigning its basic command unit and considering different people doing different jobs in different places with different skills. So there are the names.
	I shall quickly deal with the issue raised by my noble friend Lady Gibson, on behalf of another noble friend who is not able to be here, in relation to the work that is currently under way on the issue of paedophiles. Initially the Paedophile Online team, who work on child pornography on the Internet, will transfer into SOCA as part of NCS. We have yet to take a decision on the longer-term future of the work of that team, but we are clear that this is vital work that must continue.
	Issues relating to Scotland were raised by my noble friend Lady Ramsay, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose. My noble friend Lady Ramsay asked about SOCA officers operating in Scotland and I am happy to give the assurance that she seeks; namely, that designated SOCA officers operating in Scotland would be expected to have the necessary knowledge of and training in Scots criminal law and procedures. The Bill also, among other things, requires the Home Secretary to consult Scottish Ministers before setting the strategic priorities for SOCA and the agency must agree with Scottish Ministers as to the provision that its annual plan will make for Scotland. On the ground, SOCA will work in close partnership with the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency.
	These arrangements have been agreed with Scottish Ministers and, furthermore, the Scottish Parliament has adopted a Sewel motion in respect of the Bill. A similar set of arrangements will apply in Northern Ireland, where SOCA will work closely with the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
	We turn next to the issue raised by my noble friend Lord Pendry, who asked about the impact of Clause 166 on football clubs in Scotland. Scottish law currently prevents football grounds from applying for licences to sell alcohol, therefore in-house stewards who undertake designated activities within football grounds will not be required to be licensed by the Security Industry Authority, once its remit is extended north of the Border, as provided for in the Bill. We are continuing to work with the Security Industry Authority and the football authorities to resolve the position in relation to football stewards in England and Wales. I hope that that gives my noble friend a modicum of satisfaction. In answer to the point raised by the noble Duke the Duke of Montrose in relation to the SIA, it will not, as such, deal with the disciplinary matters of the pre-cognition agents.
	I now turn to an issue where, most unusually, there seems to be total unanimity across the House—that is, in relation to the offence of intimidation of persons connected with animal research organisations. Since being a Minister, I have never had experience of total agreement, and so I wish to celebrate that fact.
	My noble friend Lord Turnberg pointed out that the protection afforded to animal research organisations by the new offence in Clause 143 would not extend to grant-giving bodies which help to fund animal research organisations. We are aware of this lacuna and have received representations on the matter from a number of funding bodies. Therefore, I hope that I shall give a degree of pleasure to the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, my noble friends Lord Harris of Haringey and Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and my noble friend Lord Drayson when I say that, in the light of those representations and others, we intend to bring forward in Committee an amendment to extend the list of persons in subsection (2) of the clause to cover bodies which provide financial assistance to animal research organisations. So unanimity has its reward.
	To take up another point raised by my noble friend Lord Drayson, the Home Office has, and is, providing funding to enable the police service to tackle animal rights extremists effectively. This is very much work in progress, and we are discussing policing requirements with the service. The Home Office has funded the National Extremism Tactical Co-ordinating Unit, which provides a key co-ordinating role between the industry and the police. Extra funding has been agreed for NETCU for the next financial year. That will provide extra staff and secure accommodation and is a 135 per cent increase over this year. I hope that noble Lords will understand why it would not be prudent to provide further details in a public forum.
	I now turn, if I may, to the most difficult issue with which we have grappled today—an issue where there is not unanimity. I refer to concerns over the restriction of freedom of speech. Perhaps I may lay to rest straight away a suggestion—made not least by the noble Lord, Lord Baker—that this is some kind of pre-election gambit. If it is, it is one that has been ongoing for four or five years. There was debate in 1999 and the Bill in 2001. A Bill was then introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in 2002–03, and we are back here again. Therefore, this is a commitment that this Government have maintained over a long period of time. With the greatest respect to those who suspect otherwise, it has little, if anything, to do with any suggested election. I cannot say anything about that issue because none of us knows when the election will be called before 2006.
	This matter has been debated and there has been much support for it. The import of that support comes from Churches and multi-faith groups, which are engaged in the issue of liberty. Others outwith this Chamber have supported these provisions and have done so very solidly. Voice has been given in this debate to that support by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth, who made it clear that it is a multi-faith issue and that it is not limited to any individual faith.
	We heard very powerful speeches on this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, spoke with great passion, as did my noble friends Lord Alli and Lord Ahmed and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who has dealt with this matter time and time again, together with many others. Those voices were in support.
	Equally cogently and trenchantly, we had speeches from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the noble lord, Lord Lester, the colourful and entertaining speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, and my noble friend and short-term loyalist—I use his words, not mine—Lord Desai, all of which gave voice to passionate opposition to the Bill for fear that it will promote restriction of freedom of speech and defeat the very aims that it tries to promote.
	I remind the House that similar fears were raised about incitement to racial hatred. The problems enumerated by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville—the problems about how the ECHR would bite and the Bill would operate and how we would get juries to understand this difficult issue—are very similar to debates about incitement to racial hatred. There were those who said that having such a law would simply stir up resentment and bile against those whom the law was intended to protect. Similar arguments were made about why members of the Jewish community, Sikhs and others should not be identified in a way thought to be inappropriate—and, indeed, why people of colour would not benefit from being singled out as different and deserving of some attention.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, mentioned Section 5 of the Public Order Act, which was used in the Norwood case, and said that it could provide the protection sought under Clause 122. I make it plain that it applies only where the words or behaviour are used or the material displayed within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress. It would not cover inflammatory statements made at meetings of extreme political or religious groups that stir up hatred, because those against whom the hatred is directed will not be present. That does not happen often, but when it does, it has a very damaging effect on our community, as it did in the northern towns in 2001. We cannot ignore the pain, fear and destruction that flowed from that.
	Incitement to homophobic hatred was raised by my noble friend Lord Alli. The Government keep the criminal law under constant review and we are open to considering whether further extensions are needed. Other vulnerable groups are protected from violence and abuse under the criminal law, including the Protection from Harassment Act and the relevant provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. We would want carefully to consider any evidence that those provisions are inadequate and, if so, what form additional protection would best take. I very much welcome the commitment made by my noble friend Lord Ahmed that in relation to those rights, he stands with my noble friend Lord Alli.
	We talked a little bit about closing the gap. The noble Baroness, Lady D'Souza, raised some very important points. There is an issue about defence. It is a defence that a person who is not shown to have intended to stir up racial or religious hatred is not guilty of an offence if he or she did not know and had no reason to suspect that the offending material was threatening, abusive or insulting. A similar point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, about whether it was relevant for someone to be offended or insulted by a speech. It does not matter whether a Muslim feels insulted by an anti-Muslim speech; what matters is whether others feel stirred up to hate Muslims because of it. I remind the House that this is not an offence for Muslims. It is an offence for all religions. Christians, Hindus, Baha'is and other religions are equally covered by the offence.
	In the one or two minutes left over by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I shall briefly deal with trespass on designated sites. The new offence of trespass on designated sites is a response to the Armstrong report of July 2003 and the Security Commission inquiry report of May 2004, which both supported the creation of such an offence. I am aware that concern has been expressed that those powers may be used to prevent access to large areas of the countryside, which is an issue that was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and my noble friend Lady Gibson.
	Nothing could be further from the truth. In making designations under those powers, the Secretary of State will be mindful of the need to provide a proportionate response to intrusions at sensitive sites. In particular, we will wish to discourage deliberate intrusions into Parliament and elsewhere.
	My noble friend Lord Harris raised the issue of airguns. The Government are presently reviewing the law in that area. We will look closely at whatever further needs to be done in relation to that.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, raised the issue of information in relation to intercept material. Although we have had a number of discussions on that, intercept material is already being used. The main volume of intercept has always been and continues to be its use in assisting intelligence agencies and law enforcement to use other techniques to safeguard national security or to prevent and/or detect serious crime.
	In 2003 alone, interception led to the seizure of 26 tonnes of illicit drugs, the seizure of 10 tonnes of tobacco, the detection of £390 million of financial crime and 1,680 arrests. A sample of those reviewed by the Government showed an impressive result in conviction rate that is comparable to any other country. So we are using that information in a dynamic way. I have a full answer which goes to several pages, but I do not think that I am entitled to prey on the time of the House.
	My noble friend Lady Whitaker raised the issue of the UN Convention against Corruption and the Serious Fraud Office. First, my noble friend asked whether the provision of Chapter 5 of Part 2 would enable the Government to ratify the UN Convention against Corruption. I can assure her that the Bill will take us closer to ratification by addressing Article 55 of the convention, which relates to the forfeiture of instrumentalities of crime. But there are still certain other legislative requirements that remain to be completed. We will ratify the convention as soon as we are satisfied that the UK can comply with its obligations.
	My noble friend also asked about the investigation of international corruption and fraud, and the consequences for the Serious Fraud Office of setting up SOCA. The SFO will continue to lead on the investigation of serious fraud. However, SOCA will continue to offer specialist support and technical assistance to individual SFO investigations, including tackling international corruption as the National Crime Squad and NCIS do at the moment.
	Finally, I turn to Parliament Square, because the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and a number of noble Lords, not least my noble friend Lord Plant of Highfield, raised that very issue. The precise area will be defined in secondary legislation. We intend to consult the Metropolitan Police so that it covers the area where demonstrations disrupt the work of Parliament, hinders access to the House and causes a security risk. In defining the designated area, we will consider carefully what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said, as well as what my noble friend Lord Plant said, particularly as regards Trafalgar Square.
	I was intrigued with the argument about clamping and meters. Of course, those matters will excite a great deal of care and attention when they come to be further considered.
	The only remaining issue is whether these are matters that noble Lords can commend. We have had a very thorough debate of these issues. A huge amount of assent to the majority of the provisions has come out of it. We obviously look forward to the detailed scrutiny of the Bill. I commend the Bill to the House.
	On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.